Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
- Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
- From: Wire ~ via colorsync-users <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 09:40:33 -0800
Re graph, keep the new gen NEC in there, but leave out the old one to make
the point that now commodities displays can do it all.
Re NTSC 1953 and common TVs. No. I believe the need for bright tubes forced
a tradeoff for much narrower gamut. And led to oddities like 9300K
whitepoint in Japanese designs in 90s, where it was observed that super
bright sets sold better in big box stores, and whiter-than-white was a
selling point for all sorts of stuff.
I think the NTSC 1953 definition is important because it would have been
engineered to be a reasonable max for posterity. I can't support this with
specific evidence, but my guess is because the medium was so new, yet the
CIE had formalized all the science 20 years before, the designers would
have made their cut based on a practical maximum for the future of the
medium, tempered by what was known to be possible / useful, if not
economical. Along the lines of Pointers Gamut.
Now a lot of our visual world is synthetic, Marvel movies and such— society
is ruled by TV and movies—so wacky wide gamuts are a big gimmick for UHD
TV, which hopes to replace your life with a simulation, while cinema is
tempered by a more practical reality of the best that film can do.
Regarding how you personally cope with a big gamut display by simulating
sRGB: somehow the promise of ICC was never fully baked into the desktop.
You are doing Windows I assume.
Apple now color manages the whole UI.
As to disappoints of ICC, I think this is mostly, because it's not possible
for the smaller gamut to simulate the bigger ones—natch—and the cost
formula for commodities means most devices are smaller gamut. So what's the
point of commodities ICC support again?
While sRGB / 709 are clearly very practical fine standards for a variety of
reasons, it's noticeable that some color was left on the table and now it
can be claimed.
Apple is changing this with their vertical integration. From display,
through OS and into streaming.
As to DCI vs UHD, Netflix is called "flix" i.e. movies—//whatever happened
to WebTV?// Therefore Apple's doing a variant of DCI-P3 not BT.2020. Plus
no one can do the 2020 spec as it's insane, and insanely not backwards
compatible.
My overall point is SMPTE figured gamut out during the onset of the cold
war, and it's been engineering compromises (many) ever since.
On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 8:37 AM <email@hidden> wrote:
> Wire,
>
> Is this what you're looking for?
> https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAteG-cIdVA_xRmmA?e=EgcKHL
>
> Opinion about balance between AdobeRGB and Display P3 in consumer gear?
> Honestly, I don't know. I don't know at what rate are wide-gamut monitor
> prices coming down? I'm not sure many "consumers" care all that much or are
> the least bit knowledgeable about the gamut of their displays? As far as
> Apple's products are concerned, it may give their engineers "good
> conscience" to know they are adopting a "new" standard for display, P3, but
> I suspect most buyers are not all that preoccupied and certainly wouldn't
> be
> swayed to buy an Apple product because of their "adoption" of P3. I read
> elsewhere that Microsoft's Surface Hub has P3 as its "native" space?
>
> As an experiment, I tried to set my PA271W in its native gamut, if only to
> measure the primaries, but I quickly reverted to sRGB emulation because the
> colors were too vivid?
>
> You mentioned NTSC and I was surprised to see how far it reaches into the
> greens, not so much into the blues but almost on the nose of the spectrum
> locus for the red primary. Quite a feat. Could it be that televisions were
> made with these primaries all the way back in the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s?
>
> / Roger
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: colorsync-users
> <colorsync-users-bounces+graxx=email@hidden> On Behalf Of
> Wire ~ via colorsync-users
> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:49 AM
> To: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
>
> Roger thanks (and Andrew) for looking that up and plotting.
>
> Would you replace previous NEC model plot with NTSC 1953 and post your
> graph
> over on the DisplayCal thread you recently commented... The graph clearly
> makes Vincent at DisplayCal's point about combined P3 / Adobe coverage
> possible with some new tech. And I think it will show that consumer
> displays
> (higher end) have finally arrived at the color spec laid down when ENIAC
> was
> the next big thing (figuratively haha)
>
> What are you opinions about the balance between Adobe RGB and Display P3
> coverage in consumer gear? And challenges of wide-gamuts in general. I'm
> interested in your opinions as both what you think personally and your
> sense
> of industry trends.
>
> /wire
>
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 6:40 PM Roger Breton via colorsync-users <
> email@hidden> wrote:
>
> > Thank you so much, Mr Rodney.
> > Never knew why manufacturers could not publish this kind of data in
> > their technical brochure.
> >
> > A little graphing shows the improvements over the previous generation:
> > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkoAglHEpfO10xKmr_g?e=npCj5r
> >
> > I can see they managed to get the red primary very close to the
> > Cine-P3 red primary which, according to the P3 specs, is "made up of a
> > 615nm monochromatic" source of light.
> >
> > The green primary gives the impression that it is cleverly "sitting"
> > between
> > AdobeRGB's green primariy and Cine-P3's green primary.
> >
> > The blue primary is also improved relative to the 271W.
> >
> > I can't assess the black level, though. Being an OLED panel, it's
> > supposed to have deeper black levels than an LCD panel.
> >
> > I suppose you have a 10-bit end to end workflow?
> >
> > May I ask the source of your numbers, Andrew? I1pro2? Multiprofiler?
> > SpoectraView II? I found Multiprofiler numbers are very close to
> > lab-grade instruments, at least in my experience.
> >
> > Thank you so much for your help,
> >
> > / Roger
> > www.graxx.ca
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Rodney <email@hidden>
> > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 9:13 PM
> > To: Roger Breton <email@hidden>
> > Cc: 'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List <
> > email@hidden>
> > Subject: Re: NEC PA271Q "Native" chromaticities
> >
> > Here's what I see on mine, (full gamut) in SpectraView Info window:
> >
> > Red: 0.683, 0.311
> > Green: 0.217, 0.721
> > Blue: 0.153, 0.045
> > Source: Calibration Sensor.
> >
> > Hope that's useful.
> >
> > Andrew Rodney
> > http://www.digitaldog.net/
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 29, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Roger Breton via colorsync-users
> > <email@hidden> wrote:
> > >
> > > Would anyone have the 1931 CIE xy chromaticities of this monitor, by
> > > any chance? In its "Full", "Native" mode? It's not in the User
> > > Manual, it's not on NEC web site, it's not on some user review by
> > > PCMag or some other? It's probably shown on Multiprofiler but I
> > > don't have the version made for this monitor.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Curious to know how they can go about emulating both AdobeRGB and
> > > DCI-P3 at the same time.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Any help is appreciated / Roger
> >
> >
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