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Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device
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Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device


  • Subject: Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device
  • From: "Mikael Hakman" <email@hidden>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:15:10 +0200
  • Organization: Datakonsulten AB

Brian,

I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh below, but you have a way to put words in my mouth which I never said, and to put your thoughts in my head that I never thought. You also invent relations that don't exist and argue against what you think I think or do without knowing. In every argumentation there must rational logics, consistency, and agreement with reality. Putting a sequence of words without above qualities isn't god enough, and irritating.

On Monday, August 25, 2008 9:03 PM, Brian Willoughby wrote:

Mikael,

One thing which really stood out in your analysis was the claim that "distortion measured right after the start of the signal yields [...] 0.5% distortion!" This is actually due to your tools lacking windowing, and not an actual indication that the Apple hardware changes it's distortion specs when your magic signal appears. Your choice to avoid windows in your analysis may improve the graphs for a very small selected subset of possible signals, but you're increasing the distortion inside your tools for most other signals, and thus your measurements are not always accurate.

Nonsense! Distortion measured under steady-state conditions is -75 dB at 1000 Hz. This is in Apple's spec and I have verified and reported this in my report. Distortion at 1000 Hz measured right after the signal starts (reaches the receiver) is not specified by Apple neither by codec vendor. I have measured it to be around -46 dB or 0.5%. It is quite common for DACs that they exhibit higher distortion at the very beginning of a signal. Interesting issue is not whether there is higher distortion but by how much, and how fast the device stabilizes. Use or not use of windowing function in analysis has nothing to do with it.


Actually, using windowing function on such clean and pure test signals as mine, can only increase the computed THD+N value. This is because a window smears out that sharp single frequency peak to become a number of frequencies, all located near the peak but in separate DFT "bins" and with high amplitude. Then because THD+N computation takes RMS value of all the bins, the resulting value will be higher, much higher. Under these circumstances using a windowing functions is directly inappropriate. For example, in the actual case, using Hamming window with N=4800 results in THD+N of only -5 dB instead of those -75 dB measured by me and specified by the vendor.

Furthermore, because there are many window functions, and you can use various parameter values in these functions, which one should you choose to get right and consistent THD+N values?


Windowing is used because the FT analyses a small part of a signal as if that part repeated forever. Unless your D/A and A/D line up perfectly, your windowless analysis is actually looking at a completely distorted picture of the signal, and thus you'll see very high distortion as an artifact of your custom tools, not due to any problem in the Apple audio circuits.

Unless what? A/D doesn't know the signal is coming from another D/A, it could be a microphone. D/A doesn't know it sends output to an A/D, it cold be a monitor. So if I do get distorted signal starting with pure one then they must have distorted it, and this is precisely what I want to know and measure.


In fact, this is worst case when you start the test signal after silence, because the FT sees a repeating waveform that is very complex - and this totally explains the high distortion you're seeing in your custom tools.

Worst case!? Well, about as worst as saxophone starting to play a note from silence or near silence. About as worst as an artist playing a slow classic composition on acoustic guitar and letting every note decay to low levels! What are you talking about?


Because what? I send pure simple sine wave and if it becomes very complex signal then the device must have made it so. Very complex signal from simple one = high distortion, which is precisely what I want to know.


Digital audio is full of counter-intuitive practices. We add dithering noise to reduce quantization noise, yet the initial reaction is "why would we want to add noise to digital audio?" We use windowing on any signal fed to Fourier analysis to avoid discontinuities in the signal within the buffer, yet there are some cases where particular windowing options produce as many problems as they cure. The challenge is to select the right windowing function for the job, but I doubt you can measure an unknown process accurately without any windowing at all.


Actually, now that I think about it, even if you used windowing, you'd probably still get false readings showing high distortion at the start of your test signal because there could still be a discontinuity in the waveform in the middle of the buffer where most windowing functions are not altering the signal. You need to devise a different solution for this, and you certainly need to be careful not to report false distortion specs for the equipment you're measuring with unconfirmed tools.

There isn't any discontinuity; my specially designed signals guarantee this. I start analysis when and at the very first test signal sample reaches my receiver. If there were any discontinuity thereafter, my code would throw an exception. I just designed that different solution you are asking for and the results are put forward in my report.


Regards/Mikael

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  • Follow-Ups:
    • Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device
      • From: Brian Willoughby <email@hidden>
References: 
 >Test report MBP built-in audio device (From: "Mikael Hakman" <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device (From: Brian Willoughby <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device (From: "Mikael Hakman" <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Test report MBP built-in audio device (From: Brian Willoughby <email@hidden>)

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