Re: WOBuilder in the future of WO?
Re: WOBuilder in the future of WO?
- Subject: Re: WOBuilder in the future of WO?
- From: Andrew Satori <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:51:44 -0500
I find this whole argument about Eclipse entertaining, but not
productive :-).
Eclipse doesn't address my original concer, and that was WOBuilder
(or a successor). Arguing the merits of an editor is a no-win
argument, think emacs versus vi (they both suck, they just suck in
different ways, I would say the same thing about Xcode versus
Eclipse). It's been done to death, and in truth, with WO moving to
an Ant based build system, the choice of editors is going to become a
moot point. There are people you'll never sell on Eclipse (I'm one
of them, I spent many months with it and sick of fighting to make it
work within my workflow and preferred work environment. Bear in
mind, I spend 7-8 hours / day writing code for Windows using tools
like VS.NET & Borland's Delphi, and I've used at one point or another
in my career most major IDE & Toolchain and some that were anything
but, like say Optima++ or VX-REXX, my Mac Cocoa and WO work is done
in the evenings on my own time in the hopes that one day I can ditch
my Windows job for a job on a platform I prefer to work in/on).
What does remain relevant is the tools for working with the WO bits
like the WOComponents and EOModels. I think it's been fairly well
covered that WOBuilder is old and has been on life-support for some
time, and the EOModeler has been largely supplanted by WOLips' Entity
Modeler, OmniGraffle and to a large degree, Xcode's own Entity
Modeler from Core Data (or vice versa I suppose).
Earlier in this thread, I saw a couple of interesting comments, but
not enough details about the implementation details that might make
some of the WOBuilder comments irrelevant. Guido mention using
complex xhtml components and pagewrappers, that's useful
information. I know that in my case, most of my pages are made up of
shared WOComponents that are just xhtml code using a few WO* classes,
like WORepitions and WOStrings, and most of my layout work is done in
BBEdit & CSSEdit, while I use WOBuilder to wire the WO* classes into
the basic page and get the 'implementation' part done there. Yes,
I'd like to see a more complete WOBuilder, but I recognize that there
is a soft market for it, hence my question, is there a market and at
what price :-).
As for PageWrappers, I'm not familiar with them in the WO context.
It sounds alot like Master Pages in .NET 2. I know in .NET 2 they
are compelling in some instances, but pretty much useless in a large
percentage of uses, I'm curious about the implementation details, or
a link to look more up if I could.
I really didn't want to start an Eclipse/WOLips argument, being as
that part of the equation has been made pretty clear from Apple. My
concerns are entirely about the peripheral elements. Those are the
bits and pieces that aren't as well mapped and, well to be blunt, I
have to make a decision. Java & JSP or Java & WO or C# & .NET for my
own future. Java and WO is certainly the more Mac way, but if I have
to hand code the .wo bundles, there is no advantage to using WO, and
from a deployment standpoint, Java & JSP is just as easy, though
there are aspects about long term management that WO still has
advantages. Then there is C# & .NET, which frankly doesn't appeal
because it's mostly a Windows technology (yes, Mono works on the Mac,
yes, xsp & mod_mono will host asp.net on the Mac, but performance
sucks, there is no workable OS X debugger, the IDE situation is worse
than that of WO and frankly performance is just horrendous on the Mac).
It's certainly a spirited discussion though!
On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:
On Jan 22, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote:
Hi!
No offense, but if you are **permanently** working 50-60 hours a
week, than there's something wrong with your job/company!
Amen! When I read,
When you're already working 50-60 hours a week just to meet
current deadlines it makes you angry
All I could think of was, "Well, yes, yes it does indeed!".
If I was working that much on a weekly basis, I'd be writing my
Letter of Resignation not more code.
The quality of my work drops rapidly after about 35 - 40 hours. I
don't recall ever working with anyone that this was not true of,
though I have worked with several who failed to recognize this...
And by "working" I understand "coding". Software engineering is an
area where thins evolve fast, too fast sometimes. But that's a
fact. The only way to keep up is by learning new things. And part
of our work should be just that. I was a little surprised when saw
messages in this mail-list from people that still had Obj-C apps
running, and they were thinking about running them in Rosetta on
the new intel machines. This is NOT the way to get things done.
Things change, technology changes, everything changes. We must all
be ready for that. WebObjects could even be terminated. Just like
that. With luck it would be released in open source. The worst
case would be "it's over. Go home.". And when that happens, we
must move along to. We cannot stay here crying about how bad the
world can be. We change. We adapt. Or we go live in a farm and
take care of little pigs and cows like I will do someday! But
until that, never stop learning, evolving and adapting.
And about Eclipse... trust us, if you learn it, you will work a
LOT faster. You'll do more in the 50-60 hours, or you'll do the
same in less time.
True, but you will still be angry! :-)
Chuck
On 2007/01/22, at 19:45, Galen Rhodes wrote:
Productivity is a very subjective thing. Kind of like taste.
The big point that is coming out of all of this is that many of
us have invested a lot of time and energy becoming familiar with
xcode/WOBuilder/EOModeler and have habits and instincts that suit
us just fine, thank-you.
But now Apple is more or less pulling the rug out from underneath
us and telling us to drop everything and take the time to learn a
new way of doing things. And we're not happy about it!
When you're already working 50-60 hours a week just to meet
current deadlines it makes you angry to have someone say "just
take the time to learn Eclipse." Some times life just doesn't
work that way. Not when you have a host of other commitments
outside of work.
Maybe we are a bunch of whiners but I still feel that our point
is valid.
On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:
I don't recall of _anyone_ every wanting to go back once they
understood enough of Eclipse (figure on a mostly productive week).
Well, maybe other than Georg.... :-P
Chuck
On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Ken Anderson wrote:
Honestly, for me, productivity went forward by leaps and bounds
when I switched to Eclipse/WOLips. I don't know about anyone
else, but I found that debugging WO (especially with lots of
frameworks) with xcode was extremely painful, requiring lots of
recompiles and manual references. Maybe I was doing something
wrong, but in Eclipse, it 'just works'.
I'll never go back!
Ken
On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:18 PM, Jonathan Miller wrote:
Hi,
I've taken the plunge (started using Eclipse) and it is really
not that bad at all. Matter of fact the only issue that I saw
that is a real problem, is it does not out of the box compile
applications for SSDD/WAR correctly. It took someone from the
list to help me get this going. Other than that, I see no
reason to go back to XCode. Eclipse can be modified to add
code completion support for not only HTML, but CSS and
JavaScript too. So, in many ways it is a better web page
design tool than WOBuilder. Have a look at www.aptana.com
re: Who has the time? Unfortunately (fortunately?), I believe
this profession requires you to learn new things all the time
and this is just one more instance of it.
BR
Jon
I keep hearing the phrase's "once I converted my projects" and
"once
I got use to Eclipse/WOLips." That's a really big problem for
a lot
of us who REALLY DON'T HAVE THE TIME!
We don't have the month or more to figure out and acclimate
ourselves
to Eclipse/WOLips and painstakingly convert all of our
projects and
frameworks (which I'm still fighting with). Combine this with
the
fact that now I'll be editing my HTML and WOD files by hand
and we're
talking a serious loss of productivity. (and time... and
money...)
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"We have no sympathy for the lost souls
We've chosen the path of disgrace
We give this life to our children
And teach them to hate this place" -- Apocalyptica, Life Burns!
Miguel Arroz
http://www.ipragma.com
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