Re: Leaving WebObjects
Re: Leaving WebObjects
- Subject: Re: Leaving WebObjects
- From: Daniel Beatty <email@hidden>
- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:33:54 -0700
Greetings Hugi and the rest of the WO community,
I agree Mike and Pierre are doing a good job. I hope that the WO can do me a favor in WO's own interest. I am working on paper intended for journal publication, https://venus.cs.ttu.edu/svn/iqsIntroPaper/introPaper/IQSReviseViaWO.pdf. The favor I would like as is, would members of the WO community like to help peer review this paper and respond with criticism? It is a little hard to have buzz to anyone about WO without academia considering its merit and showing the computer science in it.
Thank you,
Dan Beatty
Ph.D. Student,
Computer Science Department
Texas Tech University
On Tuesday, April 08, 2008, at 04:30PM, "Hugi Þórðarson" <email@hidden> wrote:
>Of course we, the nerds, know that WO is doing better than ever. Hell,
>I've never been happier or more productive with WO and I've been a
>full time WO programmer since 1998. The stuff that's coming from Mike
>in WOLips (and Wonder) is nothing short of amazing.
>
>And I'm lucky - I control what software I use, and I choose WO. I can,
>because I don't have to deal with managers that "know better". But I
>completely understand why managers are reluctant to choose WO. Try
>Googling "WebObjects". The first site that comes up is Apple's site
>(surprise!) - and the first and only article there celebrated it's
>fourth birthday last month.
>
>I mean, if someone comes to you and says "check out product X, it's
>really cool!" - you go to the website of the company that makes X, and
>see that nothing's happened since 2004.... Catch my drift?
>
>I'm not trying to be negative. I don't have to. Thanks to Mike and
>Wonder, life is good with WO, and Pierre and his team are doing an
>excellent job in many regards. But perhaps it's time for Apple to
>spend like 1 man month on the WO web site (like, making it not look
>dead) or just plain redirect to the community efforts, where actual
>stuff is happening.
>
>- hugi
>
>
>
>On 8.4.2008, at 20:40, Lachlan Deck wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> On 09/04/2008, at 4:50 AM, Robert B. Hanviriyapunt wrote:
>>> For some time now, my company has been set on leaving WebObjects.
>>> We have been running WebObjects 5.2 on Windows servers.
>>
>> For some time WO5.3.3 has been out... and free. And WO5.4.1 is also
>> out.
>>
>>> We haven't moved 100% yet, but my next project will be using
>>> JavaServer Faces. And another fairly new project will be using
>>> OpenLaszlo with our existing J2E back-end.
>>>
>>> Company's reasons for leaving:
>>>
>>> 1. WebObjects is proprietary
>>
>> So is Windows. Why aren't they running BSD or Linux? ;-)
>>
>>> 2. New versions of WebObjects is not supported on Windows
>>
>> What do they understand by support? The frameworks can be used on
>> *any* platform.
>>
>>> 3. Perceived lack of knowledgeable WebObjects programmers (I'm in
>>> the Chicago suburbs -- Northbrook, IL, to be precise)
>>
>> Perhaps they've not been paying attention to the mailings lists.
>> (specifically: webobjects-dev, wonder-disc, woproject-dev).
>>
>>> We do NOT use:
>>>
>>> 1. Xcode/WebObjects tools [Xcode or WOBuilder or EOModeler] (except
>>> for me on a MacBook Pro -- only because I requested it)
>>
>> Hardly anyone uses Xcode, WOBuilder, EOModeler anymore -- especially
>> if you're on Leopard. They use Eclipse/WOLips which is much better
>> and improving in leaps and bounds all the time.
>>
>> http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOL/Home
>> - perhaps you/they've not had a look through the wiki... tutorials etc
>>
>>> 2. EOF
>>
>> If you're not using EOF - what part of WebObjects were you using?
>>
>>> 3. WONDER
>>
>> That's a huge loss - especially given that they're big on non-
>> proprietary frameworks.
>>
>>> 4. Servlet container (which I do not prefer anyway)
>>>
>>> I personally enjoy WebObjects development and wish that WebObjects
>>> would be more palatable to companies such as mine.
>>
>> I do understand where companies (or more specifically, management)
>> are coming from when they get nervous about a certain technology
>> such as WebObjects. For years Apple was quite silent about
>> WebObjects. e.g., Bug reports went unnoticed, updates didn't seem to
>> be a priority. But that has turned around quite dramatically in the
>> last couple of years... ironically beginning with the announcement
>> of the tools deprecation.
>>
>> The community is thriving and Apple (i.e., the employees) are also
>> contributing in significant ways and being proactive about bug
>> reports and taking part in the mailing lists.
>>
>>> Please excuse the ranting, but I want someone at Apple to know that
>>> as great as WebObjects technology is [I personally think it is the
>>> BEST I've seen anywhere], it is losing ground because if it's lack
>>> in thet top 3 items mentioned. I wish so bad that Apple would do
>>> something about it.
>>
>> Personally I think Apple has done something about it - and for the
>> better. But as I've explained, you're only left with one argument:
>> proprietary. You can't argue with management, unfortunately, when
>> their on the buzz word bandwagon of open-source despite the maturity
>> of a particular framework in comparison to other stuff...
>>
>> Certainly if it's completely closed and there's no possibility of
>> customising stuff... but we've already mentioned WOnder (or Houdah,
>> or similar frameworks)
>>
>>> I'm guessing people's response will be: Don't hold your breath.
>>
>> Perhaps you held it too long and didn't realise what's happened
>> these last few years ;-)
>>
>> with regards,
>> --
>>
>> Lachlan Deck
>>
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