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Re: Server Question
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Re: Server Question

  • Subject: Re: Server Question
  • From: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
  • Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:06:31 +0000
Hey Dan
Thanks very much for your thoughts on this... its good to get many perspectives especially regarding a road map for my clients...

Since I have the majority of clients that have legal requirements to fulfill I want to make sure that I give them a secure and robust platform.

Virtualization on Linux for deployment sounds best as it means that I can utilize Hardware that will be available and not be subject to Apple's Business Model.

Also the concern of OSX Server being discontinued troubles me... I need a future that does not mean I have to unmock installation and start again if that occurs...

Obviously I am behind Apple when it comes to a development platform and really enjoy OSX client and have used the Server OS for quite a few years with little issue...

Gino


On 14 Dec 2011, at 16:48, Dan Beatty wrote:

Greetings Gino,
I agree with you that this is a lot of info. I think what it boils down to
is that there are things that OSX Server does add value for, even in the
cloud and there are things that a bare bones linux will do just as well.

For a production level WO product that is being churned out with new
versions, a Linux driven virtual machine that can be deployed anywhere with
very little overhead makes a whole lot of sense. In that case, you don't
need the bells or whistles, and the Linux VM can be whittled down in size.

For a test environment or development environment, the virtual OSX makes a
whole lot of sense. In those cases, the bells and whistles come in handy.
Thus it is easier to argue for the value in that case.

The value I see in OSX Server is in the small business / lab environment
where we don't need the overhead of Microsoft's AD or Sun's big systems.
OSX Server is a much simpler solution and allows my lab to focus on other
tasks. From time to time, I have to address the science of security and
other such issues so that I have the intellectual muscle to thoughtfully
address the bureaucracy and concerns of the lawmakers. OSX Server's strong
design and useful utilities provides the luxury of time to do those kind of
things. The fact that I can run WO and my scientific apps on it is an added
bonus.

That is just my opinion, and I do not speak for any one or thing other than
me. I just report the facts honestly and fairly.

V/R,

Daniel Beatty
Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch
Code 474300D
1 Administration Circle M/S 1109
China Lake, CA 93555
email@hidden
(LandLine) (760)939-7097
(iPhone) (806)438-6620




On 12/12/11 5:57 AM, "Gino Pacitti" <email@hidden> wrote:

Thanks for all the info.. lots to think about :)))

Gino

Begin forwarded message:

From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Date: 12 December 2011 13:52:17 GMT
To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects- email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Server Question


Le 2011-12-12 à 08:38, Gino Pacitti a écrit :

Currently yes.. all on the same server and share resources...

Are you talking about getting a Intel Server and setting up my own
Virtualization - and then portion them off by account?


Yup. Another option is to use BSD Jails or Solaris Zones, which
might take less overhead (especially on the RAM side) while
isolating customers. But I never played with those, only have
experience with Xen and VMWare vSphere/ESX.

You can rent virtualization-ready servers too (check iWeb.com and
SoftLayer.com for examples). Or you can use Linode or Amazon EC2 if
your VM can less than 4 GB of RAM each. Calculate everything, you
can see a huge price difference :-)

Gino

Begin forwarded message:

From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Date: 12 December 2011 13:32:32 GMT
To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects-
email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Server Question

Does all your customers are on the same server(s) and database(s)?
You might want to go the virtualization side to isolate customers...

Lots of questions... I need to do a lot more research to find
solutions...

I have clients that require a set up where if my business no
longer wants to continue with their account can move to a system
that allows easy configuration with minimal set up and
installation... Embedded Frameworks, Database Migration,
Filesystem paths and permissions, JVM and WODeployment classes....

Gino

Begin forwarded message:

From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Date: 12 December 2011 12:58:28 GMT
To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden


Subject: Re: Server Question


Le 2011-12-12 à 05:55, Gino Pacitti a écrit :

Whats the set up with the Linux system you use.. 

CentOS 5.5 with Xen. Xen is a free virtualizer and it solid
(never had a VM going down for no reasons in the last two
years). Performance is not as great as VMWare, but hey it's
free :-). I do everything by command line except managing Xen VM
instances because I do it just a couple of time per year and I
don't remember the commands. Be aware that I did some I/O tests
and on virtual services like Linode, I/O can be half as slow as
"bare metal" performance, so if your database is going to be
big, it might be a good difference.

But really, you need to find what you need. Does the app do a
lot of database transactions? Does fail over or load balancing
is required? Does your apps needs access to the file system to
store files? Does your customers are ok with you having their
data on servers that you don't own? Do you have a SLA with your
customers? What is the SLA of your provider(s)?

Whats the hardware, OS Version, Admin Tools , Xen - I would be
interested to learn more so that I can work out solutions..
maybe dedicated server is the way to go with Linux ??

Gino

Begin forwarded message:

From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Date: 12 December 2011 10:52:28 GMT
To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden


Subject: Re: Server Question


Le 2011-12-12 à 05:43, Gino Pacitti a écrit :

Yes.. I had similar questions as I am a bit concerned about
Apples long term plans for Server software etc…


And that the Mac Pro was last updated in August 2010. The iMac
with the i7 is faster than a Mac Pro for some tasks, that's
bad when a $1800 machine is faster than a $2800 machine, that
don't even have a screen.

Anyway, since Apple killed the Xserve and seeing how they
downsized Lion Server, for long-term support I wouldn't go
with OS X. Sure, it can be easier to manage… if you have a
really basic setup. If you have a complex Apache setup, you
can't manage it with Server Admin anyway. And Linux do have a
couple of GUI apps to manage services, which that you can run
remotely by X11 (I do this to manage Xen on a Linux box).

This is an excerpt from an enquiry email I sent...

Thank you for contacting us.
Yes, we are still offering virtualised Mac OS X Server.
By using Mac Pro's in combination with Vmware vSphere we
are able to
offer
the same level of quality and even availability.


G

Begin forwarded message:

From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Date: 12 December 2011 10:36:54 GMT
To: Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] <email@hidden>
Cc: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>, WebObjects-Dev Mailing
List List <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Server Question


Le 2011-12-12 à 04:12, Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] a écrit :

Hi,

XCloud wrote
"Powered by newest Apple’s Mac Pro and Xserve Hardware,
VMware vSphere and Mac OS X Lion Server."

We use mac pro for our servers. I think they do the same as
Xserve doesn't exist anymore, even if they have old ones…


VMWare vSphere (v.5) only runs on a Xserve (and only to a
specific version of the Xserve), so unless they make it to
work on a Mac Pro, it's a dead product. Unless you get your
own Mac Pro or Mac Mini, I wouldn't go with a OS X solution.
And honestly, why OS X Server if it's only to host WO apps
and databases? I would use OS X Server only if you want to
use the other services (iCal Server, mail, managed profiles,
etc.).

Also, they write:

"VMware vSphere is fully supported server virtualization
solution that is certified to run on bare Apple Mac Pro and
Xserve."

But AFAIK, when vSphere 5 was released with official OS X
support, they said it only runs on the latest Xserve and
could only run Snow Leopard Server, and xCloud supports Lion
Server. And I remember that people on the MacEnterprise list
tried to get Lion working on vSphere and it didn't work. So
either they have a special build of vSphere or it's, sorry
to say this, bullshit :-)

Anyway, before signing on if you want to use a OS X
virtualization service, you should ask questions about long-
term support… which can be a difficult to answer to, because
it's Apple and we don't know if they will stop doing Mac
Pro...

Jérémy

Le 12 déc. 2011 à 10:07, Gino Pacitti a écrit :

Thank... I was looking at this company... http:// xcloud.me/

They seem to virtualized Lion server.... they seem to be
still using Xserve though... ?

Gino

Begin forwarded message:

From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Date: 12 December 2011 03:25:51 GMT
To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List
<email@hidden

Subject: Re: Server Question

BTW, with 200-300 users per instance with 20 instances,
you should look at load balancing. I guess that having
that number of users is for an important app, so load
balancing (or at least fail over) is something to look
at…  VMWare ESX or XenServer could be an option. With ESX
it can move a VM live(!) to another host if one of your
server host is down.

Ah... so what do think is the best platform for
WebObjects ?

What sort of RAM, CPU and OS for about 20 Instances with
around 200 - 300 users per instance...

G
On 9 Dec 2011, at 19:05, Pascal Robert wrote:

That's an answer than even ex-Apple people won't give…
But I think it was Oracle for database and Solaris as
the OS (which would explain why they don't even need
Xserve and stopped building them). I have heard SAP is
involved for the Apple Store but those are just rumors.

Hi ...

What server and OS are used by Apple for iTunes and
Apple Store... What sort of configuration is used do
you think?

G
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      • From: "Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS]" <email@hidden>
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