Re: Server Question
Re: Server Question
- Subject: Re: Server Question
- From: "Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS]" <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:23:36 +0100
Ciao,
Just to point out that :
- os x server is os x with server tools (especially true with Lion)
- linux server could be a linux with server tools
May be Apple will stop os x server... one day. But do we really need the server version to deploy webobjects ?
I don't exactly know nor try but it think os x can be a good server too... like linux (without "server").
Jérémy
Le 15 déc. 2011 à 12:06, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
> Hey Dan
> Thanks very much for your thoughts on this... its good to get many perspectives especially regarding a road map for my clients...
>
> Since I have the majority of clients that have legal requirements to fulfill I want to make sure that I give them a secure and robust platform.
>
> Virtualization on Linux for deployment sounds best as it means that I can utilize Hardware that will be available and not be subject to Apple's Business Model.
>
> Also the concern of OSX Server being discontinued troubles me... I need a future that does not mean I have to unmock installation and start again if that occurs...
>
> Obviously I am behind Apple when it comes to a development platform and really enjoy OSX client and have used the Server OS for quite a few years with little issue...
>
> Gino
>
>
> On 14 Dec 2011, at 16:48, Dan Beatty wrote:
>
>> Greetings Gino,
>> I agree with you that this is a lot of info. I think what it boils down to
>> is that there are things that OSX Server does add value for, even in the
>> cloud and there are things that a bare bones linux will do just as well.
>>
>> For a production level WO product that is being churned out with new
>> versions, a Linux driven virtual machine that can be deployed anywhere with
>> very little overhead makes a whole lot of sense. In that case, you don't
>> need the bells or whistles, and the Linux VM can be whittled down in size.
>>
>> For a test environment or development environment, the virtual OSX makes a
>> whole lot of sense. In those cases, the bells and whistles come in handy.
>> Thus it is easier to argue for the value in that case.
>>
>> The value I see in OSX Server is in the small business / lab environment
>> where we don't need the overhead of Microsoft's AD or Sun's big systems.
>> OSX Server is a much simpler solution and allows my lab to focus on other
>> tasks. From time to time, I have to address the science of security and
>> other such issues so that I have the intellectual muscle to thoughtfully
>> address the bureaucracy and concerns of the lawmakers. OSX Server's strong
>> design and useful utilities provides the luxury of time to do those kind of
>> things. The fact that I can run WO and my scientific apps on it is an added
>> bonus.
>>
>> That is just my opinion, and I do not speak for any one or thing other than
>> me. I just report the facts honestly and fairly.
>>
>> V/R,
>>
>> Daniel Beatty
>> Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch
>> Code 474300D
>> 1 Administration Circle M/S 1109
>> China Lake, CA 93555
>> email@hidden
>> (LandLine) (760)939-7097
>> (iPhone) (806)438-6620
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/12/11 5:57 AM, "Gino Pacitti" <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for all the info.. lots to think about :)))
>>>
>>> Gino
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 13:52:17 GMT
>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden>
>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 08:38, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Currently yes.. all on the same server and share resources...
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you talking about getting a Intel Server and setting up my own
>>>>> Virtualization - and then portion them off by account?
>>>>
>>>> Yup. Another option is to use BSD Jails or Solaris Zones, which
>>>> might take less overhead (especially on the RAM side) while
>>>> isolating customers. But I never played with those, only have
>>>> experience with Xen and VMWare vSphere/ESX.
>>>>
>>>> You can rent virtualization-ready servers too (check iWeb.com and
>>>> SoftLayer.com for examples). Or you can use Linode or Amazon EC2 if
>>>> your VM can less than 4 GB of RAM each. Calculate everything, you
>>>> can see a huge price difference :-)
>>>>
>>>>> Gino
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 13:32:32 GMT
>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects-
>>>>>> email@hidden>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does all your customers are on the same server(s) and database(s)?
>>>>>> You might want to go the virtualization side to isolate customers...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lots of questions... I need to do a lot more research to find
>>>>>>> solutions...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have clients that require a set up where if my business no
>>>>>>> longer wants to continue with their account can move to a system
>>>>>>> that allows easy configuration with minimal set up and
>>>>>>> installation... Embedded Frameworks, Database Migration,
>>>>>>> Filesystem paths and permissions, JVM and WODeployment classes....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 12:58:28 GMT
>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 05:55, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whats the set up with the Linux system you use..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CentOS 5.5 with Xen. Xen is a free virtualizer and it solid
>>>>>>>> (never had a VM going down for no reasons in the last two
>>>>>>>> years). Performance is not as great as VMWare, but hey it's
>>>>>>>> free :-). I do everything by command line except managing Xen VM
>>>>>>>> instances because I do it just a couple of time per year and I
>>>>>>>> don't remember the commands. Be aware that I did some I/O tests
>>>>>>>> and on virtual services like Linode, I/O can be half as slow as
>>>>>>>> "bare metal" performance, so if your database is going to be
>>>>>>>> big, it might be a good difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But really, you need to find what you need. Does the app do a
>>>>>>>> lot of database transactions? Does fail over or load balancing
>>>>>>>> is required? Does your apps needs access to the file system to
>>>>>>>> store files? Does your customers are ok with you having their
>>>>>>>> data on servers that you don't own? Do you have a SLA with your
>>>>>>>> customers? What is the SLA of your provider(s)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whats the hardware, OS Version, Admin Tools , Xen - I would be
>>>>>>>>> interested to learn more so that I can work out solutions..
>>>>>>>>> maybe dedicated server is the way to go with Linux ??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 10:52:28 GMT
>>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 05:43, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes.. I had similar questions as I am a bit concerned about
>>>>>>>>>>> Apples long term plans for Server software etc…
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And that the Mac Pro was last updated in August 2010. The iMac
>>>>>>>>>> with the i7 is faster than a Mac Pro for some tasks, that's
>>>>>>>>>> bad when a $1800 machine is faster than a $2800 machine, that
>>>>>>>>>> don't even have a screen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, since Apple killed the Xserve and seeing how they
>>>>>>>>>> downsized Lion Server, for long-term support I wouldn't go
>>>>>>>>>> with OS X. Sure, it can be easier to manage… if you have a
>>>>>>>>>> really basic setup. If you have a complex Apache setup, you
>>>>>>>>>> can't manage it with Server Admin anyway. And Linux do have a
>>>>>>>>>> couple of GUI apps to manage services, which that you can run
>>>>>>>>>> remotely by X11 (I do this to manage Xen on a Linux box).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excerpt from an enquiry email I sent...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for contacting us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we are still offering virtualised Mac OS X Server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By using Mac Pro's in combination with Vmware vSphere we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same level of quality and even availability.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 10:36:54 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>, WebObjects-Dev Mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> List List <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 04:12, Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> XCloud wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Powered by newest Apple’s Mac Pro and Xserve Hardware,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> VMware vSphere and Mac OS X Lion Server."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We use mac pro for our servers. I think they do the same as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve doesn't exist anymore, even if they have old ones…
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> VMWare vSphere (v.5) only runs on a Xserve (and only to a
>>>>>>>>>>>> specific version of the Xserve), so unless they make it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> work on a Mac Pro, it's a dead product. Unless you get your
>>>>>>>>>>>> own Mac Pro or Mac Mini, I wouldn't go with a OS X solution.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And honestly, why OS X Server if it's only to host WO apps
>>>>>>>>>>>> and databases? I would use OS X Server only if you want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> use the other services (iCal Server, mail, managed profiles,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, they write:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "VMware vSphere is fully supported server virtualization
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution that is certified to run on bare Apple Mac Pro and
>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But AFAIK, when vSphere 5 was released with official OS X
>>>>>>>>>>>> support, they said it only runs on the latest Xserve and
>>>>>>>>>>>> could only run Snow Leopard Server, and xCloud supports Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>> Server. And I remember that people on the MacEnterprise list
>>>>>>>>>>>> tried to get Lion working on vSphere and it didn't work. So
>>>>>>>>>>>> either they have a special build of vSphere or it's, sorry
>>>>>>>>>>>> to say this, bullshit :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, before signing on if you want to use a OS X
>>>>>>>>>>>> virtualization service, you should ask questions about long-
>>>>>>>>>>>> term support… which can be a difficult to answer to, because
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's Apple and we don't know if they will stop doing Mac
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pro...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jérémy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 12 déc. 2011 à 10:07, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank... I was looking at this company... http://xcloud.me/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They seem to virtualized Lion server.... they seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still using Xserve though... ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 03:25:51 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <email@hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, with 200-300 users per instance with 20 instances,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you should look at load balancing. I guess that having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that number of users is for an important app, so load
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balancing (or at least fail over) is something to look
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at… VMWare ESX or XenServer could be an option. With ESX
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can move a VM live(!) to another host if one of your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server host is down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah... so what do think is the best platform for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebObjects ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What sort of RAM, CPU and OS for about 20 Instances with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around 200 - 300 users per instance...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 Dec 2011, at 19:05, Pascal Robert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's an answer than even ex-Apple people won't give…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I think it was Oracle for database and Solaris as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the OS (which would explain why they don't even need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve and stopped building them). I have heard SAP is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved for the Apple Store but those are just rumors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What server and OS are used by Apple for iTunes and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Store... What sort of configuration is used do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G
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