Re: Server Question
Re: Server Question
- Subject: Re: Server Question
- From: Dan Beatty <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:29:03 -0800
- Thread-topic: Server Question
Hi,
You are correct Jeremy. We can pretty much deploy WO just about anywhere
depending on the application and limitations of the data. Cloud/VM oriented
deployments are nice because it is easy to implement best practices and keep
the deployment portably small.
The reason to consider OSX server is the same for any other platform to
deploy on. Name, the service exists and is in our customer's midst. The
machine with its OS will typically be in our customer's midst for some
reason other than WO. It may have XSan capability (even with Mac Mini's
with thunderbolt ports) and that strong file system can be pretty useful.
The two main customers for OSX server are basically the home officer/ small
business/ small to mid size laboratory facility where the simplicity of OSX
server beats out the overhead and cost of Sun, Microsoft, HP, etc. This
ends up saving money, in terms of many times the cost of the machines
themselves. The other is in film/ graphics creation. I just hope that
Apple remembers the lessons learned as to why good citizenship is worth
obtaining. Unfortunately, I see an era of IT poision emerging again.
I agree with you that for a WO server, a regular Lion server will typically
suffice. Also, a Linux instance tends to suffice for deployment.
V/R,
Daniel Beatty
Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch
Code 474300D
1 Administration Circle M/S 1109
China Lake, CA 93555
email@hidden
(LandLine) (760)939-7097
(iPhone) (806)438-6620
On 12/15/11 3:23 AM, "Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS]"
<email@hidden> wrote:
> Ciao,
>
> Just to point out that :
> - os x server is os x with server tools (especially true with Lion)
> - linux server could be a linux with server tools
>
> May be Apple will stop os x server... one day. But do we really need the
> server version to deploy webobjects ?
>
> I don't exactly know nor try but it think os x can be a good server too...
> like linux (without "server").
>
> Jérémy
>
> Le 15 déc. 2011 à 12:06, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>
>> Hey Dan
>> Thanks very much for your thoughts on this... its good to get many
>> perspectives especially regarding a road map for my clients...
>>
>> Since I have the majority of clients that have legal requirements to fulfill
>> I want to make sure that I give them a secure and robust platform.
>>
>> Virtualization on Linux for deployment sounds best as it means that I can
>> utilize Hardware that will be available and not be subject to Apple's
>> Business Model.
>>
>> Also the concern of OSX Server being discontinued troubles me... I need a
>> future that does not mean I have to unmock installation and start again if
>> that occurs...
>>
>> Obviously I am behind Apple when it comes to a development platform and
>> really enjoy OSX client and have used the Server OS for quite a few years
>> with little issue...
>>
>> Gino
>>
>>
>> On 14 Dec 2011, at 16:48, Dan Beatty wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings Gino,
>>> I agree with you that this is a lot of info. I think what it boils down to
>>> is that there are things that OSX Server does add value for, even in the
>>> cloud and there are things that a bare bones linux will do just as well.
>>>
>>> For a production level WO product that is being churned out with new
>>> versions, a Linux driven virtual machine that can be deployed anywhere with
>>> very little overhead makes a whole lot of sense. In that case, you don't
>>> need the bells or whistles, and the Linux VM can be whittled down in size.
>>>
>>> For a test environment or development environment, the virtual OSX makes a
>>> whole lot of sense. In those cases, the bells and whistles come in handy.
>>> Thus it is easier to argue for the value in that case.
>>>
>>> The value I see in OSX Server is in the small business / lab environment
>>> where we don't need the overhead of Microsoft's AD or Sun's big systems.
>>> OSX Server is a much simpler solution and allows my lab to focus on other
>>> tasks. From time to time, I have to address the science of security and
>>> other such issues so that I have the intellectual muscle to thoughtfully
>>> address the bureaucracy and concerns of the lawmakers. OSX Server's strong
>>> design and useful utilities provides the luxury of time to do those kind of
>>> things. The fact that I can run WO and my scientific apps on it is an added
>>> bonus.
>>>
>>> That is just my opinion, and I do not speak for any one or thing other than
>>> me. I just report the facts honestly and fairly.
>>>
>>> V/R,
>>>
>>> Daniel Beatty
>>> Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch
>>> Code 474300D
>>> 1 Administration Circle M/S 1109
>>> China Lake, CA 93555
>>> email@hidden
>>> (LandLine) (760)939-7097
>>> (iPhone) (806)438-6620
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/12/11 5:57 AM, "Gino Pacitti" <email@hidden> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the info.. lots to think about :)))
>>>>
>>>> Gino
>>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 13:52:17 GMT
>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 08:38, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently yes.. all on the same server and share resources...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you talking about getting a Intel Server and setting up my own
>>>>>> Virtualization - and then portion them off by account?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup. Another option is to use BSD Jails or Solaris Zones, which
>>>>> might take less overhead (especially on the RAM side) while
>>>>> isolating customers. But I never played with those, only have
>>>>> experience with Xen and VMWare vSphere/ESX.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can rent virtualization-ready servers too (check iWeb.com and
>>>>> SoftLayer.com for examples). Or you can use Linode or Amazon EC2 if
>>>>> your VM can less than 4 GB of RAM each. Calculate everything, you
>>>>> can see a huge price difference :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 13:32:32 GMT
>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <webobjects-
>>>>>>> email@hidden>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does all your customers are on the same server(s) and database(s)?
>>>>>>> You might want to go the virtualization side to isolate customers...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lots of questions... I need to do a lot more research to find
>>>>>>>> solutions...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have clients that require a set up where if my business no
>>>>>>>> longer wants to continue with their account can move to a system
>>>>>>>> that allows easy configuration with minimal set up and
>>>>>>>> installation... Embedded Frameworks, Database Migration,
>>>>>>>> Filesystem paths and permissions, JVM and WODeployment classes....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 12:58:28 GMT
>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 05:55, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whats the set up with the Linux system you use..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CentOS 5.5 with Xen. Xen is a free virtualizer and it solid
>>>>>>>>> (never had a VM going down for no reasons in the last two
>>>>>>>>> years). Performance is not as great as VMWare, but hey it's
>>>>>>>>> free :-). I do everything by command line except managing Xen VM
>>>>>>>>> instances because I do it just a couple of time per year and I
>>>>>>>>> don't remember the commands. Be aware that I did some I/O tests
>>>>>>>>> and on virtual services like Linode, I/O can be half as slow as
>>>>>>>>> "bare metal" performance, so if your database is going to be
>>>>>>>>> big, it might be a good difference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But really, you need to find what you need. Does the app do a
>>>>>>>>> lot of database transactions? Does fail over or load balancing
>>>>>>>>> is required? Does your apps needs access to the file system to
>>>>>>>>> store files? Does your customers are ok with you having their
>>>>>>>>> data on servers that you don't own? Do you have a SLA with your
>>>>>>>>> customers? What is the SLA of your provider(s)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whats the hardware, OS Version, Admin Tools , Xen - I would be
>>>>>>>>>> interested to learn more so that I can work out solutions..
>>>>>>>>>> maybe dedicated server is the way to go with Linux ??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 10:52:28 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List <email@hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 05:43, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes.. I had similar questions as I am a bit concerned about
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apples long term plans for Server software etc
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And that the Mac Pro was last updated in August 2010. The iMac
>>>>>>>>>>> with the i7 is faster than a Mac Pro for some tasks, that's
>>>>>>>>>>> bad when a $1800 machine is faster than a $2800 machine, that
>>>>>>>>>>> don't even have a screen.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, since Apple killed the Xserve and seeing how they
>>>>>>>>>>> downsized Lion Server, for long-term support I wouldn't go
>>>>>>>>>>> with OS X. Sure, it can be easier to manage if you have a
>>>>>>>>>>> really basic setup. If you have a complex Apache setup, you
>>>>>>>>>>> can't manage it with Server Admin anyway. And Linux do have a
>>>>>>>>>>> couple of GUI apps to manage services, which that you can run
>>>>>>>>>>> remotely by X11 (I do this to manage Xen on a Linux box).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an excerpt from an enquiry email I sent...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for contacting us.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we are still offering virtualised Mac OS X Server.
>>>>>>>>>>>> By using Mac Pro's in combination with Vmware vSphere we
>>>>>>>>>>>> are able to
>>>>>>>>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>>>>>> the same level of quality and even availability.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 10:36:54 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>, WebObjects-Dev Mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> List List <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 2011-12-12 à 04:12, Jérémy DE ROYER [INGENCYS] a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> XCloud wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Powered by newest Apple¹s Mac Pro and Xserve Hardware,
>>>>>>>>>>>> VMware vSphere and Mac OS X Lion Server."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We use mac pro for our servers. I think they do the same as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve doesn't exist anymore, even if they have old ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> VMWare vSphere (v.5) only runs on a Xserve (and only to a
>>>>>>>>>>>> specific version of the Xserve), so unless they make it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> work on a Mac Pro, it's a dead product. Unless you get your
>>>>>>>>>>>> own Mac Pro or Mac Mini, I wouldn't go with a OS X solution.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And honestly, why OS X Server if it's only to host WO apps
>>>>>>>>>>>> and databases? I would use OS X Server only if you want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> use the other services (iCal Server, mail, managed profiles,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, they write:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "VMware vSphere is fully supported server virtualization
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution that is certified to run on bare Apple Mac Pro and
>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But AFAIK, when vSphere 5 was released with official OS X
>>>>>>>>>>>> support, they said it only runs on the latest Xserve and
>>>>>>>>>>>> could only run Snow Leopard Server, and xCloud supports Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>> Server. And I remember that people on the MacEnterprise list
>>>>>>>>>>>> tried to get Lion working on vSphere and it didn't work. So
>>>>>>>>>>>> either they have a special build of vSphere or it's, sorry
>>>>>>>>>>>> to say this, bullshit :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, before signing on if you want to use a OS X
>>>>>>>>>>>> virtualization service, you should ask questions about long-
>>>>>>>>>>>> term support which can be a difficult to answer to, because
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's Apple and we don't know if they will stop doing Mac
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pro...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jérémy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 12 déc. 2011 à 10:07, Gino Pacitti a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank... I was looking at this company... http://xcloud.me/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They seem to virtualized Lion server.... they seem to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> still using Xserve though... ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gino
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 12 December 2011 03:25:51 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gino Pacitti <email@hidden>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: WebObjects-Dev Mailing List List
>>>>>>>>>>>> <email@hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Server Question
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, with 200-300 users per instance with 20 instances,
>>>>>>>>>>>> you should look at load balancing. I guess that having
>>>>>>>>>>>> that number of users is for an important app, so load
>>>>>>>>>>>> balancing (or at least fail over) is something to look
>>>>>>>>>>>> at VMWare ESX or XenServer could be an option. With ESX
>>>>>>>>>>>> it can move a VM live(!) to another host if one of your
>>>>>>>>>>>> server host is down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah... so what do think is the best platform for
>>>>>>>>>>>> WebObjects ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What sort of RAM, CPU and OS for about 20 Instances with
>>>>>>>>>>>> around 200 - 300 users per instance...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 Dec 2011, at 19:05, Pascal Robert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's an answer than even ex-Apple people won't give
>>>>>>>>>>>> But I think it was Oracle for database and Solaris as
>>>>>>>>>>>> the OS (which would explain why they don't even need
>>>>>>>>>>>> Xserve and stopped building them). I have heard SAP is
>>>>>>>>>>>> involved for the Apple Store but those are just rumors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What server and OS are used by Apple for iTunes and
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple Store... What sort of configuration is used do
>>>>>>>>>>>> you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> G
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