Re: Problems with current Apple X11 package
Re: Problems with current Apple X11 package
- Subject: Re: Problems with current Apple X11 package
- From: magenta <email@hidden>
- Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:47:28 -0800
On Fri, Jan 31, 2003 at 03:40:18PM -0800, Sean Ahern wrote:
> This has elements of becoming a religious battle, but into the fray...
>
> magenta wrote:
> > > > One of the greatest strengths of X11 (which is something that both
> > > > Microsoft and Apple could learn from) is that it allows the *user* to
> > > > customize *everything* about their environment (not just superficial
> > > > things
> > > > like colors and window decorations).
> > >
> > > This is also one of the largest drawbacks of X :-)
> >
> > Only to someone who thinks they should dictate the way their application
> > behaves.
>
> Oh, come on. That's stretching it a bit.
>
> <rant>
>
> To be fair, one of the main problems with X is that every application can
> dictate how it should behave, without constraint. "Mechanism, not policy,"
> remember. That's great for me, an application designer. It can be a pain
> for the user. If a user has to change the way he works when he switches
> between applications, his productivity is going to drop and his annoyance
> level will increase.
Yes, that's a problem with X. But it also comes with the strength that for
well-behaved applications, the user can dictate how it should behave,
through their choice and configuration of window manager.
> Now let's constrain the application designer. Assume that all of a user's
> applications are written with Qt or GTK or whatever so that they all work
> pretty much the same. But his window manager has a million different
> settings so that he can customize things so everything works exactly how he
> wants. He can set things so that flicking the mouse left while both the
> middle and right buttons are down causes the topmost window group to
> maximize. There are no window decorations. This user now calls you for
> help with his environment. How do you tell him what to do? You can only
> make so many assumptions how things behave in an X11 environment.
Hopefully the user would know their own window manager configuration. I'm
not advocating applications specifying window policy - I'm advocating that
all lying within the window manager, and the user having control over the
window manager's policy.
> Once you constrain most everything, you're talking about Windows and MacOS.
> Take a guess what the installed base of Windows and MacOS is compared to
> X11. I will guarantee you that my grandma will find Windows and the Mac a
> heck of a lot easier to use than X11 *precisely* because her actions are
> constrained and consistent (to a larger degree than X11).
I'm not talking about the application developer being able to change
application behavior, I"m talking about the user being able to change
application behavior. If the user is competent enough to change their
window manager settings, they should be allowed to. Obviously it's a good
idea to have a default, simple configuration for the window manager, but I
shouldn't have to suffer because your grandma doesn't understand tabbed
window groups or the separation of window raise from window focus.
> I'm sure you've heard the quote:
>
> If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than
> five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed
> the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car
> stereo. Useful feature, that.
> -- Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation
That refers to toolkits, not window managers. The argument for window
mangers goes more like:
If the designers of X-Windows built cars, then it would be possible
for the user to replace the steering wheel with an aircraft yoke if
they so desired.
I'm not talking about the application developer, I'm talking about the
user. Please understand this.
As a user, I *choose* to run pwm with a certain configuration, as it works
best with my thought processes and my own physical problems (namely a
severe case of carpal tunnel syndrome). I don't want to inflict that on
everyone else, but I also don't want the Aqua designer to inflict their
obtuse, mouse-oriented, "let's make everything into overlapping windows
that have to be herded around" design on me either.
> So I think you both are right: being able to configure X11 is one of its
> greatest strengths as well as one of its largest drawbacks.
>
> And I've in both camps for years: an application writer, and a user who
> uses X11 on Linux as his daily desktop.
Yes, so am I. Never, EVER, EVER did I say that the application writer
should be able to dictate window policy. If anything I've been saying the
EXACT OPPOSITE.
If you're going to debate what I"m saying, try debating what I'm actually
saying.
--
http://trikuare.cx
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