Re: a modest proposal
Re: a modest proposal
- Subject: Re: a modest proposal
- From: Mark Lowe <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:01:40 +0200
While I know eclipse and the rest of those monolithic swing/awt
flavored IDE's do a whole load of stuff xcode doesn't I'd (and do) opt
for xcode every-time. Any of the extras you want xcode to do you can
use ant to fire up. I've always developed J2EE using a text editor and
a terminal (previosly using make as a build tool, but for the last 3
years or so ant).
For someone who doesn't like the clutter of a fully blown IDE xcode
works just fine. My only gripe is the CVS support. Perhaps a POJO Bean
creator wouldn't go a miss as an xcode plugin but IMO Xcode strikes the
right balance. The fact that its a native application rather than a
monolithic java app is good for a start.
All the tests and such like that eclipse offers can be done writing ant
tasks, and xcode's templating system allows you to add your own custom
scripts as you want as a starting point of any new project. Beyond that
I don't see the problem. The extra stuff apps like eclipse gives a
(IMO) false perception of productivity and control, but when you look
at most mailing lists the really dumb questions come from eclipse
users. Its takes the user too many steps from understanding how all the
technologies are bound together.
Also for building quick dirty command line run java apps (non j2ee
ones) xcode does fine. I don't see what else is really needed.
Mark
On 13 Jun 2004, at 01:55, Lotsa Cabo wrote:
I'm not totally sure what you were getting at when you mentioned the
cosmetics of Eclipse to the Java guys, but I would have to agree with
them. I don't care about the cosmetics or layout of any application I'm
using. That includes an IDE. For me, it's about productivity. When
comparing two products (in this case XCode vs Eclipse) I am going to
look at what is the most stable, has the quickest response time, and
allows me to get the job done as quickly and flawlessly as possible.
This is why I agree with your statement, "leave Java on XCode for dead"
statement.
As for the ADC page on Eclipse, it was highly transparent. The folks
at Apple are intelligent guys (I realize this, otherwise, I would not
be jumping ship from M$ after 20 years). I am confident that they see
the value in Eclipse and have probably "Oooh'ed" and "Aaah'ed" just
like the rest of us. There are several features in Eclipse that are
downright cool (like the automatic refactoring, code templates,
etc.)... things I'm sure they wish they implemented into XCode. We
know this. They know we know this. We know they know we know this.
My point being is that the ADC page on Eclipse is nothing more than a
way to try and hang onto those few that are trying to not be tempted by
the features in Eclipse... kinda like the "If you can't beat'em,
join'em" mindset. Now, I don't hold that against them. I mean, what
else would they do? Admit defeat? Personally, what I would have
RATHER saw is a page that said, "We agree that Eclipse has some cool
features. We're working with the Eclipse developers and plan to
implement several of their concepts in the next version of XCode.
You'll all have a copy next month."
Bottom line: It's about productivity. I realize many hard core Mac
guys out there will not want to touch Eclipse because it feels too much
like the enemy. Personally, I wish XCode could do half of the things
that Eclipse does. Unfortunately, the cold hard fact is that it
doesn't and it is not as productive for Java development when compared
to Eclipse. I've only been on Eclipse for a week and already I'm
productive. My advice to the folks at Apple would be to hurry up
before those of us that have stopped using XCode get comfortable on
Eclipse. Once we do, even if a version of XCode comes out that matches
the feature list in Eclipse, it won't make logical sense to switch
back.
Just my two pennies...
R/S
Ryan
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On Jun 12, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Frank Rimlinger wrote:
I just saw a really fine article on ADC promoting Eclipse:
http://developer.apple.com/tools/eclipse.html
The only trouble with Eclipse is that it is at heart a Windows
application, and some people (like me) just can't deal with that. For
example, you are boxed in to this one gigantic frame which is supposed
to take over your entire desktop. I brought this issue up on the
java-dev list and the response from the Eclipse crowd was basically
"we don't care--we don't have too."
But evidently Apple does care, so why not leave java on Xcode for dead
and divert resources to Eclipse development? There is a precedent for
this. Anybody remember OS 9?
frank
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