Re: Xcode - An Apple Embarrassment
Re: Xcode - An Apple Embarrassment
- Subject: Re: Xcode - An Apple Embarrassment
- From: Andrew Satori <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 12:24:55 -0500
I think you are thinking differently.
Really, Xcode is fine in projects that have lots of files. Where it gets strange and most of it's bugs really start to show up is when you start dealing with workspaces that contain multiple projects with multiple targets and dependancy trees.
Let me give you an example, and this literally the workspace that took me the longest to make happy in Xcode.
The project in question has 14 Applications, 3 common Frameworks, and 2 static libraries. A full build will build every thing in the tree, but there are multiple smaller build cycles that can be done in there. How this works in each IDE is a little different. Even how it works between Xcode3 and Xcode4 is different. When I first tried this, I was 'forcing' things to work the way I thought it should be done. It was a mess. I crashed Xcode, and sometimes the entire OS repeatedly. Finally, after some trial and error, I reworked things to fit the model that Xcode 4 presents. Not changing code, but changing how I was assembling things. Using targets instead of sub projects, and voila, almost all of my problems went away.
What I am getting at, is that yes, they all have bugs, and I don't find that Xcode has any more egregious bugs than any other IDE or dev environment I have ever used, and that includes a LOT of IDE's, from MEtrowerks, to Watcom, to Borland, to MS, Eclipse, MonoDevelop, BeIDE, and many others. Ultimately, if you want to leverage the power of an IDE, you have to learn to work within it's quirks, not force it to fit yours. If you want to force it fit yours, then I highly recommend Makefiles and a good Text Editor, because nothing will ever fit everyones workflow.
On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Brian Lambert wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> What you're saying is silly. Actually, it's flat-out absurd.
>
> Xcode is an all-purpose tool for building arbitrarily complicated iOS and OS X applications. Whatever can be expressed in Xcode, be it number of source files, number of configurations, complexity of code, etc., should just work. It's ridiculous to anthropomorphize the tool and think of it as being "pushed too far". It's software. It is either correct or it is incorrect. It either works or it doesn't.
>
> When an IDE crashes, for any reason whatsoever, it's a bug. When an IDE loses data, for any reason whatsoever, it's a bug. When an IDE silently fails to be able to open a file, build a project, take you to an error, show code sense, design a NIB, etc., it's a bug.
>
> My point is, if Xcode allows you to do something, and then doesn't work in some way once you've done it, it's busted and can be fixed.
>
> Brian
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Andrew Satori <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> Spend some quality time with Embarcadero's RadStuido XE2. It will frequently get into an issue where the debugger will fail to exit. The only option is to restart Windows. In Visual Studio, yes it rarely causes the system to hang, but it's not unusual at all for it's syntax highlighting get completely out of sorts, and I have a solution that I can load that I can reliably build and debug about 3 times before VS gets confused about dependancies and starts to block with unable to write file errors. I have the same issues in other platforms as I do in Xcode, and I feel that I push all of them pretty hard, with large workspaces that contain multiple projects with multiple dependancies.
>
> I don't care what IDE you want to talk about, they all break when we push them in unexpected ways, and as developers, we tend to push tools to fit our workflows, not to conform to theirs. I think if you look at your problems, and get serious about understanding them, you will find that you are creating some of your own problems. I know that every single serious 'flaw' I have found in Xcode 4 has been where I have been forcing a behavior. Learning to relax and go with it, I have found Xcode 4 to be very productive, and I haven't crashed it once in the last 2 weeks.
>
> It is all about what you make of it. You can fight it, or you can resist change and force it. I spend every single day with RadSTudio, Visual Studio and Xcode all three up and running, usually compiling the exact same code. It has taken a good bit of patience to get things to a place where that wasn't painful, and I cannot point to any one of those IDE's as being better or worse in terms of bugs. I have been bitten by all of them in different ways.
>
> To sit here and kvetch that Apple is doing wrong is, IMO, inappropriate. Can they do better? yes, and specific suggestions on specific things is productive, but a general, Xcode sucks position, Xcode crashes 10 times a day doesn't help much.
>
> "It's Broke" is absolutely worthless, as you should well know as a commercial developer. You want good bug reports, file good bug reports, work WITH Apple to fix it, document your workarounds, share with the community. In short, contribute to fixing things.
>
> And yes, I have bugs filed against all three environments, one of which has been open for 6 years with Microsoft.
>
>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Jean-Daniel Dupas wrote:
>
> >
> > Le 29 févr. 2012 à 13:56, Andrew Satori a écrit :
> >
> >> You need to spend time in the "good" ones then. The same issues exist.
> >
> > That's wrong. I don't know any IDE but Xcode that force me to hard reboot my machine 10 times a day.
> > And yes, I have a bug opened about this issue.
> >
> >>
> >> Andy 'Dru' Satori - all typos courtesy of fat finger and an iPad
> >>
> >> On Feb 29, 2012, at 2:52 AM, Crispin Bennett <email@hidden> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 29/02/2012, at 10:16 AM, Andrew Satori wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You know, I find this comical to read. No Xcode is not perfect. Yes it has issues, but here is the thing, I prefer IDE development, and I have used a bunch over the years. Let us call a spade a spade. They all suck in new and glorious ways. Xcode is has some really great features, along with some really silly bugs. Most of the bugs have workarounds, but a few are truly annoying. The problem is, so do most of the other options.
> >>>
> >>> People are talking about some pretty basic problems with Xcode, though; certainly more than just small bugs and annoyances. And they're in many cases to do with really basic facilities, things like syntax highlighting, and moving between tabs within a reasonable amount of time. And above all: crashes (and far too many of them).
> >>>
> >>> No tools are perfect, of course, but that doesn't make them all of equal quality, either. Xcode is one of the bad ones, and, coming from Apple, it shouldn't be.
> >>
> >
> > -- Jean-Daniel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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