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Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects)
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Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects)


  • Subject: Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects)
  • From: "Andrew R. Mitchell" <email@hidden>
  • Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:07:02 -0500

All,

I've been following the Cocoa Advocacy/Cocoa's Popularity thread for days now, and after todays messages I just had to chime in. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, I'm just trying to provide some perspective from a long time Mac (now Carbon) developer.

First off, I'm tired of this Carbon vs Cocoa, Objective-C vs C++ flame war that is going on. Both Carbon and Cocoa are key for the future success of Apple. And neither is perfect for everything. API choice along with language choice should be based on the task at hand. Some things Cocoa is better for, some things Carbon is better for. Some things C++ is better for, some things Objective-C is better for, and lets not forget some things an alternate language may be better for (AppleScript, Java, Ada, Smalltalk, Dylan, Perl, Python, etc). Not every language or API is suited for every task.

We are all Mac developers no matter what language or API we use. We need to focus on that, not try to rip the platform we all love so much into separate camps. And lets not forget about the Unix folk among us that are doing neither Carbon or Cocoa development. They are Mac developers too.

Second, it is clear from reading this list, the carbon list, other developer mailing lists, and the developer WWDC issues thread now appearing on Macintouch <http://www.macintouch.com/wwdcsuggs.html> (see my comments near the bottom of the Mar. 22 letters) that all Mac developers seem to be unhappy with how they and their respective preferences are being treated by Apple. This clearly leads me to believe that Apple is not doing a very good job of developer relations in either camp, not just one or the other.

Once you get by our differences, the rest of the problems we have with Apple seem to be fairly consistent between us. They can be broken down into the following eight primary issues:

1) Tools/Languages - Clearly we all have our favorites. And we all feel Apple is slighting us. Apple needs to clearly state that all are welcome on X. And Apple needs to improve the ones it offers.

2) Documentation - whether it be printed, electronic, sample code, training materials, etc., Apple needs to do a better job of providing developer documentation.

3) Performance - we are all tired of seeing, and having our users see, the now infamous spinning ball. Apple needs to do whatever it can to improve performance under Mac OS X

4) Bring back <insert technology here> - Whether it's EOF, MacApp & ACS, Dylan, V-Twin, Open Transport Streams, etc., there are technologies that certain developers find key to their particular area of expertise that Apple has abandoned, and we want them back. Now in all honesty it is probably impossible for Apple to bring everything we want back, but they should make every effort to give to the community (ie Open Source) any of the "needed" technologies that they can't support themselves.

5) Support - we feel Apple is not doing enough to support us, the Mac development community. This is something Apple really needs to work on, because it is us that will make this platform a viable alternative.

6) Usability - The old Mac users feel that X is too Next like. The old Next users feel that X is too Mac like. In short, it's really a pretty good merger between the two, but there are lots of very rough edges there. Apple needs to polish these off as soon as possible.

7) Cost - Some of us are professional developers, some of us are hobbyists, and some of us fall somewhere in between. Apple needs to make sure we all have the ability to make great software for the platform. (One of my requests would be to have WWDC webcast.)

8) Respect - When it comes right down to it, this is probably the root of most problems, we feel Apple doesn't respect us. While I'm sure we all made fun of Steve Ballmer's appearence at the Microsoft Developer conference, and probably most of us laughed at the video that later appeared (Developers, developers, developers, developers. ...) the point is we don't see that type of enthusiasm coming from Apple. Not that we want Apple to become Microsoft mind you.

Sure, you can add to this list, and sure some of these could be broken apart, but this covers a lot of issues that both sides have, and yes we both have them.

Just keep these thoughts in mind as you try to figure out what you want to do as a Mac developer community. It can be argued that Carbon is an outdated API that isn't needed on X, but the same can be argued about Cocoa by Carbon developers. Neither API is outdate, they are both needed, and we are all Mac developers.

Keep the peace!

Andrew R. Mitchell
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  • Follow-Ups:
    • Re: Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects) (rekindling the fire)
      • From: Jeff LaMarche <email@hidden>
    • Re: Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects)
      • From: Sherm Pendley <email@hidden>
    • Re: Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects)
      • From: Ondra Cada <email@hidden>
    • Re: Apple and Developers (was lots of different subjects)
      • From: Mike <email@hidden>
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