Re: Harbinger or anticlimax? [maybe a little OT]
Re: Harbinger or anticlimax? [maybe a little OT]
- Subject: Re: Harbinger or anticlimax? [maybe a little OT]
- From: Jeff LaMarche <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:32:28 -0500
Well said. Unfortunately, I think this thread made it seem that Todd
and I have radically different views on the topic. Actually, I think
we're quite close from a purely technical standpoint (if you search the
lists, you'll see that I argued for keeping and maintaining Cocoa EOF
separate from WO, and also against dropping Objective-C support for WO
and dropping Yellow-box compatibility) I think the difference between
us is really more a matter of perspective: Most of my career, I worked
for a software company and can remember countless situations where I
argued in many, many cases for the "better" (from a purely technical
standpoint) choice and lost the battle. It's a fact of life that
neither customers nor software executives are usually fully informed
about the decisions they have to make (Mr. Blanchard is an obvious
exception). it's not worth giving yourself an aneurism because people
have made choices you don't agree with, even if you feel that you're in
a better position to make the judgment then they are, and even if it
will have an impact on your daily life.
Understanding the realities of the software development biz and the
uncertainty of the market, I can understand Apple's decision to go to
Java, and I agree with you wholeheartedly that it was not the decision
that caused the decline in WO's quality, it was Apple's follow through
(or lack thereof) that has caused the problems.
Oh, well. Here's hoping things get better. I still love OS X and Cocoa
and am even still rather fond of WO, even if I don't like everything
Apple's done with all the NeXT technology they inherited.
Jeff
On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 08:13 PM, David K. Every wrote:
Jeff and Randy, I think you both have points, and at least both
partially correct.
Now WO is written in Java.
If Apple had not converted to Java, people would have stopped taking
WO seriously.
Really?!?! After trying the port and seeing the (minimal) level of
QA the product was getting, I stopped taking it seriously...
Apple could have succeeded with ObjC, if they did it well. But they
killed cross platform yellow box, killed EOF for Cocoa, and basically
killed the "develop once, and deliver everywhere"... (Whether they
bring parts back or not, doesn't change that they burned people on the
first change, and lack of communications and focus/follow-thru). They
gave up .NET, years before Microsoft re-invented it.
Apple could have succeeded with Java, if they did it well. If they
made the move quickly, and had really put a lot of effort into QA, and
had a well communicated plan on where they were going, and when, and
then delivered on it. Do you know where Apple is headed with WO?
So I think both technology paths had strengths and potential. The
problem was on delivery and follow-thru. (Lack of focus/commitment?)
Any Americas Cup captain will tell you that you don't beat the other
guy by adopting his tactics, you develop superior tactics. I don't
care what *everybody* uses because in my experience *everybody* is a
windows buying idiot.
You can succeed by being the same as others; if you are better at it
than they are, or are perceived as it.
Generally, it is better if you are better enough that people will buy
your solution, and your solution is different. Then you have some
unique value added, and can have a more protected market.
The worst choice is to be different and not significantly better (or
not better enough to attract people).
I don't think WO has successfully been able to take on WebLogic or
WebSphere, and be seen as better (even if in at least a few ways it
is); but they are seen as different. So Apple isn't the same. And they
aren't perceived as better enough for most enterprises. And many that
have tried it, have gotten burned -- some their fault, some not.
Apple totaly squandered their lead by jumping into a me-too market...
I think the point is that they have squandered their lead. Either
path. There were many paths to success. I still have hope that THIS
WWDC will be different than the last 3 or 4. But it looks like there's
far less emphasis and focus on WO; so I'm not sure the change is for
the better, for Apple/Enterprise (in the WO arena).
No CIO or CTO would have selected a non-Java based application
server package, no matter how good it was.
Really?!? I did. And I did it at $50k per server. People will buy
what clearly works - lacking knowledge of what clearly works, they
buy what everyone else uses. WObjC clearly worked. I can't say that
anymore.
I think at least a few would have bought an ObjC based solution; as
long as it stayed ahead of other solutions/technologies.
I think more would have bought a Java based solution; as long as it
was ahead of other solutions and technologies and was robust.
As it is?
You can dig a beachhead with a good implementation and technology and
grow from there. Apple dropped theirs, and went for a bigger market;
but have SO FAR failed to communicate their advantages or convince
many people to move. And I don't feel they are finished with their
technology shift. So they gave up all their advantages, and went for
someone elses, but haven't yet fully caught up there.
It feels to me that they have converted fewer Java people to use WO
than they've lost because of ObjC advantages.So overall, it seems like
they are below break even. I don't blame this all on Java.
There are certainly cases where Java is not very viable. But there are
cases where people will pay the performance losses for the ubiquity.
So there were wins with Java as well; if they were well exploited. But
you have to be better, or at least make people think you're better. I
don't get the feeling most people think WO is either.
--
David K. Every
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