Re: maclife.de
Re: maclife.de
- Subject: Re: maclife.de
- From: Uli Zappe <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 00:25:16 +0200
Am 02.09.2008 um 23:28 schrieb Andrew Rodney:
IF you want to do it, do it. If the product you use doesn't support
custom, ICC profiles you yourself can build, you have to decide if
that's a compelling reason not to use the product. Doesn't mean the
product is broken
Edmund didn't say "broken", he only said that it's a (admittedly:
"crying") shame that this feature is missing, to which I agreed and
agree.
Apple's situation is even more absurd as they praise ICC camera
profiles in their Aperture manual, but don't deliver in the Aperture
software ...
Maybe you can tell us based on your engineering knowledge why this
is the case and/or how their product specifically fails to provide a
desired color appearance
I certainly don't want to start the next emotional topic. Personally,
I think Adobe apps are flawed in many respects, many of them GUI
related, but not specifically related to color reproduction. In any
case, my main point was to refrain from authority arguments ("smart
people think X is the case").
We also have tens of thousands of Windows users happily using
Microsoft products ... And even more users who have never used
color management at all ...
I use Microsoft products (and I'm on a Mac). I'm not sure what that
statement has to do with anything.
It hasn't. :-) And the same is true for your statement of "tens of
thousands if not more ACR/LR users happily processing millions of
images using the Adobe solution" which is what I wanted to point out.
As for those that never use color management, well, its not at all
useful for lots of people. The facts are, tens of thousands of
professional photographers ARE using Adobe Raw solutions, in color
managed workflows and only a very small vocal few color geeks are
yelling about this profile "issue". So either they are all right and
the real users are clueless and wrong, or the geeks are blowing this
way out of proportion. You tell me what you think is the case.
I have no idea why you persist so much on the status quo, repeatedly
pointing to the many people that are content with it. That's not the
way progress is taking place. There was a time when only a "vocal
minority" used color management at all. Because of their
"vocalism" ;-), it got adopted more widely in several areas, but not
yet in the one of camera profiling, since this is even more
complicated than others. But that's no reason to leave it at that. If
the "real users" don't use camera profiling, not because they're still
busy coming to terms with other areas of color management, and not
because they feel it's still too expensive compared to what they gain
from it, but because they really think that camera profiling
principally cannot and will not work, then yes, they are "clueless and
wrong".
Yes I can't read the text and I have no idea other than what you've
said if its scientifically accurate or not. Even so, it doesn't have
anything to do with dismissing a solution in two major, if not the
biggest selling and installed base of Raw converters on the planet.
If it ain't broken....
... don't add new features?
For my test camera, a carefully crafted DNG custom profile still
delivered worse results than Apple's default profile for Aperture ...
Worse how? You did or didn't alter the numerous rendering sliders?
I used a ColorChecker chart to create a metrologically correct
profile; I did not alter anything else.
You expected that this profile all by itself, in all cases, from all
captures was what an end user wanted from his/her subjective
rendering?
No, I expected it to be objectively correct as much as possible in all
these situations.
What's more right or wrong, Velvia or Ektachrome 100?
I haven't measured their color deviations.
Wrong how?
Metrologically.
Which print of Moonrise over Hernandez by Adams is worse or better?
That's the 100 pound gorilla argument that's so completely flawed. Is
an artful photography metrologically correct? No.
But that does not mean that metrologically correct colors are
unimportant as a starting point. Only if I got metrologically correct
colors in the beginning, *all* the deviations from them will be
*mine*, and therefore, creative expression. If I start out with a
metrologically flawed image, some of its deviations will not be the
result of creative expression, but of accidental technological flaws.
That's not my concept of art.
Yep, but in a proprietary format you cannot replace by an
individual ICC profile such as one build with ProfileMaker.
And that's a must have capability because?
Profiles by ProfileMaker are better.
That's remarkable considering that of the factory profiles, those
of Adobe are amongst the worse.
Which ones? For which cameras?
I performed detailed measurements for my test camera only (Canon EOS
40D). You are correct in pointing that out; that I wrote "are amongst"
instead of "were amongst" suggests a generality I cannot prove with my
test, though I have no reason to assume that the Canon EOS 40D is an
unrepresentative exception.
Worse how?
Color deviation as measured in delta E(1976)
You've used the beta profiles just supplied?
I used Lightroom 2.0 with Camera RAW 4.5.
I can easily make a red object blue or a blue one red using the
appropriate sliders in a good converter. The default position of
those sliders is in no way "right", custom or canned profile.
Of course it is, you're flogging this a bit too much. ;-)
IF you're simply expecting to shoot something in Raw, apply a
profile an expect prefect color, you're greatly missing the point of
why photographers shoot Raw!
You probably need to read this:
http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/family/prophotographer/pdfs/pscs3_renderprint.pdf
I know this text very well. I see no contradiction in it to what I
wrote about creativity vs. accidence.
Bye
Uli
________________________________________________________
Uli Zappe, Solmsstraße 5, D-65189 Wiesbaden, Germany
http://www.ritual.org
Fon: +49-700-ULIZAPPE
Fax: +49-700-ZAPPEFAX
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