Scanning color negs with camera
Scanning color negs with camera
- Subject: Scanning color negs with camera
- From: "Mark Rice" <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:54:53 -0400
Shooting color negs with a camera, neutralizing in Photoshop, and converting
to positives is NOT a good idea. The orange mask in a negative is not a
linear function - it purposely develops chemically in relation to the
underlying colors in the image to provide a "color masking" effect. Thus the
value of the orange mask will have a different value if it overlies a strong
Red, Green, or Blue are that if it overlies a neutral gray area of equal
density - that is it's purpose.
Buildiing your own profile would be exceedingly difficult. Why not use a
scanner and use the built in color negative profiles - there is no need to
re-invent the wheel.
Mark Rice
609.865.1981
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 6, Issue 228 (Mike Strickler)
2. Re: Fw: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft
proofing color negatives? (Jos? ?ngel Bueno Garc?a)
3. Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
color negatives? (Joel Mark)
4. Making scans of color negatives [was: Is there a profile with
inverted values for soft proofing color negatives?] (Marco Ugolini)
5. Re: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
(Tyler Boley)
6. Re: Fw: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft
proofing color negatives? (MARK SEGAL)
7. Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 6, Issue 228 (MARK SEGAL)
8. Re: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
color negatives? (MARK SEGAL)
9. Re: Making scans of color negatives [was: Is there a profile
with inverted values for soft proofing color negatives?] (MARK
SEGAL)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:54:40 -0700
From: Mike Strickler <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 6, Issue 228
To: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Hi Paul,
Have you tried Silverfast HDR? It is just like SF Ai except that it
is used for imported images. It works well, though here again you
must do a bit of tweaking of each image since the negative "profiles"
are based on "average" exposures and SF's database doesn't include
all emulsions. The nice thing about HDR is that it works with any
scanner output. I have also had success in Photoshop by simply
inverting the image and correcting for the R, G, and B masks in
Levels. The fine tuning is done in Curves and Hue/Saturation. This is
equivalent to what SF does.
Why are you using a camera for this?
Good luck,
Mike Strickler
MSP Graphic Services
423 Aaron St. Suite E
Cotati, CA 94931
O: 707.664.1628
C: 707.321.7855
F: 707.939.4542
www.mspgraphics.com
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:17:09 +0200
> From: Paul Schilliger <email@hidden>
> Subject: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
> color negatives?
> To: "email@hidden"
> <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am scanning SF negatives with a digital camera (...) and I am
> looking
> for a profile that would allow soft proofing the positive values of a
> color negative while working on it. Is there such thing?
>
> Or perhaps: would you know of a plugin filter for Photoshop that
> allows
> shifting the RGB channels to remove the color mask of negatives while
> inverting the image? I have tried SilverFast Negafix, but since the
> film
> profiles and automated process does not work for me on imported images
> and has to be done manually anyway (could be better with direct
> scans),
> I am looking for something straightforward and basic that would do
> just
> that in Photoshop, ideally with the possibility of saving presets. It
> seems that the level tool of Photoshop isn't particularly good for
> that
> or maybe I need more understanding. Any suggestion welcome!
>
> Paul Schilliger
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:34:15 +0200
From: Jos? ?ngel Bueno Garc?a <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Fw: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft
proofing color negatives?
To: email@hidden
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Or VueScan.
Or you can try a game. Scan as positive and in PS neutralize, usually
in the (perfored?) unexposed part of film: Levels + white point, and
invert to get a real positive image, and then Levels + black point in
the same place. If you are lucky and find a known neutral value you
can eliminate the remainig cast. Try (got) to save the levels used if
you find an acurate result to repeat in others.
Sorry, not a game but a torture and is visual correction.
Better VueScan that has samples of negative films.
Jose Bueno
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 13:51:36 -0700
From: Joel Mark <email@hidden>
Subject: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
color negatives?
To: colorsync <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Try Ian Lyons' method at this link: http://www.computer-darkroom.com/
tutorials/tutorial_6_1.htm.
Joel H. Mark, Photographer
Communicating Your Vision
(323) 874-9907
www.joelmark.com
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Marco Ugolini <email@hidden>
Subject: Making scans of color negatives [was: Is there a profile with
inverted values for soft proofing color negatives?]
To: ColorSync Forum <email@hidden>
Message-ID:
<email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Joel Mark wrote:
> Try Ian Lyons' method at this link:
> http://www.computer-darkroom.com/tutorials/tutorial_6_1.htm .
I agree that starting off by scanning a color negative as positive (and
always in 16 bits!) is a good way to do it. I have done it that way myself,
with more-than-decent results.
But one thing is left untouched in Lyons' otherwise good tutorial: which RGB
color space (ICC profile) should one assign to the scan?
That is not a trivial question, since it affects both the tonal distribution
and the color gamut of the resulting image.
It's a step for which I myself have not yet found a completely satisfactory
formula. I would be curious to see how others tackle this specific challenge
(the one of determining which RGB profile to assign to the positive scan of
a color negative).
Marco Ugolini
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:49:55 -0700
From: Tyler Boley <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
To: email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> From: Paul Schilliger <email@hidden>
> ...
> Or perhaps: would you know of a plugin filter for Photoshop that allows
> shifting the RGB channels to remove the color mask of negatives while
> inverting the image?
>
http://www.c-f-systems.com/Plug-ins.html
playing with it in demo looked quite promising actually, worth playing
with. Negafix never worked well for me, and I use Silverfast with a drum
scanner quite a bit. It works, but I don't thank their tables are that
great, require PS fixing later...
Tyler
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:19:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Fw: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft
proofing color negatives?
To: Jos? ?ngel Bueno Garc?a <email@hidden>,
email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I have both programs and VueScan, while great value for money and a capable
program, would be a second choice compared with Silverfast for dealing with
Negatives.
Mark
________________________________
From: Josi Angel Bueno Garcma <email@hidden>
To: email@hidden
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:34:15 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
color negatives?
Or VueScan.
Or you can try a game. Scan as positive and in PS neutralize, usually
in the (perfored?) unexposed part of film: Levels + white point, and
invert to get a real positive image, and then Levels + black point in
the same place. If you are lucky and find a known neutral value you
can eliminate the remainig cast. Try (got) to save the levels used if
you find an acurate result to repeat in others.
Sorry, not a game but a torture and is visual correction.
Better VueScan that has samples of negative films.
Jose Bueno
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:21:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 6, Issue 228
To: Mike Strickler <email@hidden>,
email@hidden
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Inverting curves in Photoshop and fine-tuning the outcome is doable but
painful and not always all that successful. SF makes this
conversion/optimization MUCH easier and more reliable.
Mark
________________________________
From: Mike Strickler <email@hidden>
To: email@hidden
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 3:54:40 PM
Subject: Re: Colorsync-users Digest, Vol 6, Issue 228
Hi Paul,
Have you tried Silverfast HDR? It is just like SF Ai except that it is used
for imported images. It works well, though here again you must do a bit of
tweaking of each image since the negative "profiles" are based on "average"
exposures and SF's database doesn't include all emulsions. The nice thing
about HDR is that it works with any scanner output. I have also had success
in Photoshop by simply inverting the image and correcting for the R, G, and
B masks in Levels. The fine tuning is done in Curves and Hue/Saturation.
This is equivalent to what SF does.
Why are you using a camera for this?
Good luck,
Mike Strickler
MSP Graphic Services
423 Aaron St. Suite E
Cotati, CA 94931
O: 707.664.1628
C: 707.321.7855
F: 707.939.4542
www.mspgraphics.com
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:17:09 +0200
> From: Paul Schilliger <email@hidden>
> Subject: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
> color negatives?
> To: "email@hidden"
> <email@hidden>
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am scanning SF negatives with a digital camera (...) and I am looking
> for a profile that would allow soft proofing the positive values of a
> color negative while working on it. Is there such thing?
>
> Or perhaps: would you know of a plugin filter for Photoshop that allows
> shifting the RGB channels to remove the color mask of negatives while
> inverting the image? I have tried SilverFast Negafix, but since the film
> profiles and automated process does not work for me on imported images
> and has to be done manually anyway (could be better with direct scans),
> I am looking for something straightforward and basic that would do just
> that in Photoshop, ideally with the possibility of saving presets. It
> seems that the level tool of Photoshop isn't particularly good for that
> or maybe I need more understanding. Any suggestion welcome!
>
> Paul Schilliger
>
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing
color negatives?
To: Joel Mark <email@hidden>, colorsync
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Yup - I know that tutorial; not that it doesn't work for many images, but
for Ian's "5 minutes of work" you'll probably more often get a better
outcome using Silverfast with Negafix.
Mark
________________________________
From: Joel Mark <email@hidden>
To: colorsync <email@hidden>
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 4:51:36 PM
Subject: Is there a profile with inverted values for soft proofing color
negatives?
Try Ian Lyons' method at this link:
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/tutorials/tutorial_6_1.htm.
Joel H. Mark, Photographer
Communicating Your Vision
(323) 874-9907
www.joelmark.com
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:40:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Making scans of color negatives [was: Is there a profile
with inverted values for soft proofing color negatives?]
To: Marco Ugolini <email@hidden>, ColorSync Forum
<email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
In Silverfast, which does what Ian's approach does but faster and more
reliably, you can go to Options>CMS and evaluate (by looking at the image on
your display) the effect of selecting alternative Color Working Spaces (what
in Silverfast-ese is the "Internal" space). I generally use ProPhoto, but on
occasion I've had to use ARGB(98) Perceptual in order to tame some seriously
OOG reds.
Mark
________________________________
From: Marco Ugolini <email@hidden>
To: ColorSync Forum <email@hidden>
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 7:31:01 PM
Subject: Making scans of color negatives [was: Is there a profile with
inverted values for soft proofing color negatives?]
Joel Mark wrote:
> Try Ian Lyons' method at this link:
> http://www.computer-darkroom.com/tutorials/tutorial_6_1.htm .
I agree that starting off by scanning a color negative as positive (and
always in 16 bits!) is a good way to do it. I have done it that way myself,
with more-than-decent results.
But one thing is left untouched in Lyons' otherwise good tutorial: which RGB
color space (ICC profile) should one assign to the scan?
That is not a trivial question, since it affects both the tonal distribution
and the color gamut of the resulting image.
It's a step for which I myself have not yet found a completely satisfactory
formula. I would be curious to see how others tackle this specific challenge
(the one of determining which RGB profile to assign to the positive scan of
a color negative).
Marco Ugolini
_______________________________________________
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