Re: Do I need to upgrade to i1Profiler? With respect to UV
Re: Do I need to upgrade to i1Profiler? With respect to UV
- Subject: Re: Do I need to upgrade to i1Profiler? With respect to UV
- From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
- Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:49:45 -0400
- Thread-topic: Do I need to upgrade to i1Profiler? With respect to UV
Claas
Unfortunately I must disagree. While I have no doubt that you can get two
devices made by your own company to agree, there is no independent certified
reference medium that exists today to judge m1 performance in an unbiased
fashion. The trick isn't to get two of the same instruments from a family
to agree, the trick is to get all instruments to agree. Physically
speaking, the tungsten output of a lamp is well understood and the amount of
uv in a properly adjusted lamp is extremely consistent between instruments
of any family. Most importantly, the excitation from an M0 instrument
generally excites the OBA in the paper more than most viewing booths. If
anyone took the time to actually measure the UV excitance of M0 instruments
using a certified tile with OBA, they would have seen that there is
excellent agreement between instruments. The problem is not the reality, but
the fact that the excitation was not specified. M1 attempts to specify the
excitation energy, but it does so in a nebulous fashion that may or may not
yield the anticipated outcome assumed by the standard.
I never said that there would be bad agreement when comparing M0 to M1
instruments. They were designed to NOT agree, so disagreement is the
expected result. What I did say is that if you expect the M1 measurement
mode to have any real meaning with respect to visual studies, you will be
disappointed.
" how they can benefit
> from having the opportunity measuring FWA treated papers correctly
> (by means of using a measurement light source that corresponds to the viewing
> environment¹s light source) for the very first time.
"
While this makes good advertising copy, it is patently incorrect on a number
of points:
First, knowledge of the source cannot correct for the unknown UV absorption
of the inks. Without knowledge of the UV absorbance of the inks and their
mixtures, the effect of the UV upon fluorescence is not predictable because
it is modulated by the inks themselves. One cannot simply multiply the
source times the ink reflectance to get a correct value in the presence of
UV. If you were to do this with arbitrary Pantone colors on coated papers
you would have errors on the order 4 de76 in many colors when compared with
tele-spectrophotometric measurements in the light booth.
Second, the FD5/FD7 measures down to 380nm which leaves quite a bit of
excitation range in the UV unmeasured, so it is not clear that you can even
characterize the source well enough to understand what is happening in the
UV. I don't have a copy of the spec in front of me, but it is not clear that
you could even confirm that an illuminant met m1 requirements.
> The fact that UV content in today's used viewing booths are not equal to D50
> is correct but almost all vendors of ISO3664 viewing cabinets have changed
> their light sources to meet ISO 3664:2009 so that one can expect to have the
> correct UV content in the field¹s viewing environments soon.
>
Finally, at the ICC Developers Conference, I showed physical measurements of
paper under booth illumination that demonstrated that structure in UV region
propagated into the visible. The concept that you can just have a correct
ratio-metric amount of UV in the illumination as described in the ISO spec,
should not imply that you will get the same integral excitation on output.
The concept of "correct UV content" is tenuous at best. By the way, some
of your KM colleagues were at the Dev Con and they should have a copy of the
paper on the DVD.
Within X-rite, I was one of the strongest supporters of the M1 spec until I
took a very close look at what it really implied and the real field
implications. Most importantly, it is important to control expectations
from end users in the field. M1 has raised a certain expectation level that
I fear will not be realized. I did not come to this conclusion without a
great deal of research and measurements.
In my opinion, for M1 to have realizable benefits, a number of tasks must
happen:
1. An independent Certified Reference Medium must be agreed upon. I am
personally working with some standards manufacturers on this problem.
2. The effect of major spectral deviations (high energy spikes) from the D50
standard, as found in every light booth, needs to be better understood. It
is my understanding that CIE is looking at this.
3. A better mechanism between contact measurement and physical viewing
environment color needs to be developed.
Regards,
Tom
On 4/12/11 7:04 AM, "Claas Bickeböller" <email@hidden> wrote:
> Dear Tom and all,
>
> Regarding to your statement that one has to expect a bad inter-instrument
> agreement when comparing M1 to M0 type,
> I must say that I cannot agree at all.
> 1. M1 is a well defined measurement mode compared to M0
> 2. The light source used in a M1 device has to be controlled and stable in
> order to be able to meet M1 conditions according to ISO 13655
>
> Thus, one can expect a much better inter-instrument agreement using two M1
> devices than two M0 devices.
> At least this is what we, at Konica Minolta, see when we compare the
> performance of our FD-7 and FD-5 devices (which are the first M1 capable
> devices on the market) to the technical specifications published by vendors of
> M0 devices for the graphic arts industry.
>
> I agree with you that you have to expect a bad inter instrument agreement when
> measuring FWA treated substrates and mixing M1 and M0 devices.
> But that is similar as if mixing M2 (³UV-cut²) and M0 devices. This is simply
> a mistake in using the devices. Thus we have to carefully educate our
> customers how to use the measurement modes correctly and how they can benefit
> from having the opportunity measuring FWA treated papers correctly
> (by means of using a measurement light source that corresponds to the viewing
> environment¹s light source) for the very first time.
> Using our FD-7 (not FD-5) you can measure the viewing environment's light
> source to be registered to the FD-7,
> and then use this registered light source as a measurement light source for
> the reflection measurements. That means that you can not only use D50 as a
> measurement light source but also the exact light source you are using for
> your visual assessments in your viewing environment.
> In addition, the registered light source can also be used as reference
> illuminant for the calculation of colour values (CIELAB or CIEXYZ). That means
> when using the registered light source for both, measurement light source and
> calculation illuminant, you can measure as you see.
>
> The fact that UV content in today's used viewing booths are not equal to D50
> is correct but almost all vendors of ISO3664 viewing cabinets have changed
> their light sources to meet ISO 3664:2009 so that one can expect to have the
> correct UV content in the field¹s viewing environments soon.
>
> Thanks for reading
>
> Claas
>
> Claas Bickeböller
> Application Engineer
> Graphic Imaging EMEA
>
> Konica Minolta Sensing Europe B.V.
> Swiss Branch Dietikon
> Riedstrasse 6
> CH - 8953 Dietikon
>
> Phone: +41 43 322 98 04
> Mobile: +41 79 861 71 77
> Fax: +41 43 322 98 09
> E-mail: email@hidden
> Website:http://www.konicaminolta.eu
>
> Am 10.04.2011 um 14:26 schrieb Tom Lianza:
>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> The whole UV issue is like a wound that won't stop itching. The inclusion
>> of optical brighteners in papers has led to a demand for "specified" amounts
>> of UV in the measurement path. There are now four ISO measurement modes:
>> M0 - traditional tungsten illumination
>> M1 - illumination simulating D50 and/or matching the UV content of D50
>> relative to the visible portion
>> M2 - UV cut: minimal or no uv in the illumination sample
>> M3 - Crossed polarized and UV cut in the illumination beam.
>>
>> The goal of the M1 specification is to provide the illumination that
>> simulates the standard viewing conditions. It is not easy to control the
>> specific amount of UV without careful tuning and frankly M1, in my opinion
>> will add to confusion and cause greater instrument to instrument
>> disagreement. Given the fact that most viewing booths do not meet the UV
>> characteristics of D50, the M1 condition will lead to greater disagreement
>> between visual and instrument assessment.
>>
>> Isis is much older than the new specification, and hence, its design was
>> aimed at helping solve the problem in a different way. If you look at the
>> OBA module we provide, there are visible standards that are used to
>> correlate the iSis measurements with a specific media in a specific booth.
>> The goal here is to fold the effect of UV AS VISUALLY INTERPRETED, back into
>> the profile.
>>
>> I am in the process of writing a White Paper on this subject for the ICC. I
>> hope you see that this is not " dictated by devious instrument design
>> logic", but rather, a case of the instrument design preceding the ISO
>> specification AND a desire to actually solve the problem in real life.
>>
>> Take care
>> Tom Lianza
>> Co Chair ICC
>> Director Advanced Development R&D X-rite
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/10/11 4:38 AM, "Mike Strickler" <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>> Random observations about all this, as if anyone cares:
>>>
>>> 1. No one "needs" to upgrade, if that's the right word. There is no plan to
>>> confiscate your PM5 or Monaco. They're both working for now, at least on
>>> 10.6,
>>> and later on you can keep a copy on an old Mac or PC. What a crisis.
>>>
>>> 2. Colorport works, but what a dreadful user experience! Like Brookhurst
>>> Avenue in Anaheim, CA, an incoherent jumble of signs and ugly typography.
>>> Like
>>> Windows, come to think of it. The same with Monaco, actually. Nice profiles,
>>> but an interface only an engineer can love. (I hope you're not reading this,
>>> George.) The best thing about the new software is that it grabbed some of
>>> Monaco's best features, like the flexible black generation curve, and rolled
>>> it up with the Profilemaker/EyeOne usability and lovely interface. Then, for
>>> some reason, they stopped short and left us with Colorport for measuring?
>>> Doesn't fit the philosophy or aesthetics. Maybe they ran out of time.
>>>
>>> 3. On Monaco's supposed supremacy over PM5 (from Marc): For some things,
>>> maybe, but I could never demonstrate that it made a better printer profile,
>>> not visually, not by the numbers. I know the features and why they should be
>>> better, including Intelligent Black. It was so cool! Problem is, I was
>>> always
>>> able to duplicate these effects in PM5 very closely (and those of some very
>>> brainy ink-savings programs as well). Maybe I'm just not smart enough to
>>> appreciate the advantages, don't have the palate, you might say. X-Rite
>>> apparently thought both programs needed improvement, thus Prism.
>>>
>>> 4. Marc, we've already been told that iterative L*a*b* profile optimization
>>> doesn't work, and we must accept it, regardless the evidence. Please get
>>> with
>>> the program, so to speak. I will be refusing all prompts to optimize.
>>>
>>> 5. A major crime remains unredressed with this release, or has it? The
>>> wondrous iSis, jewel in the i1 crown, runs at half-speed for those who
>>> insist
>>> on including ultra violet in their measurements as it doggedly adds a second
>>> pass in UV-cut mode (technically no-UV-included, as there's no UV to cut).
>>> Can
>>> someone finally tell us why UV-filtering freaks get the only fast mode? Why
>>> is
>>> this the default in this day and age? Is this dictated by devious
>>> instrument
>>> design logic? Is a UV-excluded pass perversely needed to simulate the UV?
>>> Anyone? Marc? Ray Cheydleur?
>>>
>>> 6. No one has griped about the lack of a scanner profiling module. A
>>> no-brainer, this one: Scanner operators are real men, and they don't whine.
>>> They also tend not to believe in color management, and now they've been paid
>>> back by being officially obsoleted. (Note to Epson/Silverfast owners: Do not
>>> reply; you do not own a scanner.)
>>>
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