Re: Color Management for iPad?
Re: Color Management for iPad?
- Subject: Re: Color Management for iPad?
- From: Tom Lianza <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:07:37 -0400
- Thread-topic: Color Management for iPad?
Hi Jan-Peter
>Do you agree that it makes sense, that at at least iOS and Android,
> should have a central place for a display profile, which could be sRGB
> as a preset and a also ICC compliant CMM which would be available for
> highend Apps and ignored from standard Apps ?
>
> Do you also agree, that the ICC should recommend this functionality to
> Apple and Google ?
The whole reason that we (the ICC) are trying to formulate this meeting is
to discuss these issues with the platform and web developers. Before the
ICC can/should recommend any functionality, we need to understand the
physical problems that surround the Web/mobile environments and the real
needs of the consumers.
With regard to the security issue that I am talking about, if the profiles
aren't interpreted or read, they are not an issue. They just take up space.
I'm running some tests on popular browsers to examine colorimetrically, the
nature of the data handling. At the moment, display color management is an
issue in nearly all of them, just like the OS situation. This is a
situation that I would like to see cleaned up on the platforms, but there
are a lot of technical issues on the browser side. A very simple example is
the need to handle a tagged element that spans two different displays. It's
not an easy problem to solve.
Regards,
Tom
On 8/1/11 1:03 PM, "Jan-Peter Homann" <email@hidden> wrote:
> Hello Tom an all,
> Interesting discussion, some comments in the text:
>
> Am 01.08.11 17:52, schrieb Tom Lianza:
>> Hello Jan-Peter
>>
>>> Especially in the tablet market, we have a growing group of professional
>>> users like e.g. photographers, people in medical imaging, graphic
>>> designers doing presentations at customer sides....
>>>
>> Wouldn't it make the most sense to optimize the image for the platform used
>> for presentation? In this sense, the tablet is just like a printer, it can
>> be characterized, profiled, and images can be rendered for it directly. You
>> don't need any active color management on the tablet for those tasks.
> Jan-Peter:
> I personally prefer use cases, which allows easy synchronisation of
> files between desktop, tablets, cloud.. like e.g. dropbox.
> In this case, the tablet is much more than a printer. Some basic
> colormanagent from embedded profiles to the display profile should
> happen at tablet side...
>
>
>>
>>> If the App for creating and configuring an individual display
>>> ICC-profile is certified e.g. through Apple and available through the
>>> iTunes Store, I don´t see any security issues.
>>> If people in the professional imaging area already have an instrument
>>> and software for profiling their desktop environment, they probably
>>> would buy an App to profile their iPad, if they have the need for
>>> accurate colors.
>>>
>> I wasn't clear, it's not the profile of the device display, it's the
>> millions of arbitrary profiles that can be attached to the billions of
>> images in the digital domain. This is where the security issue is. That is
>> a digital backdoor that is not easy to certify. Another point is where do
>> you draw the line, are cmyk images OK, how about LAB encodings, why not
>> establish DNG as a web standard?
>
> Jan-Peter
> Sorry, I don´t get this point. People are using solutions like e.g.
> dropbox to transfer all kind of files to their mobile devices. Why is it
> possible to run such kind of applications, if an embedded profile in an
> image is an potential security problem ?
>
>>
>>> If an mobile device with hardcoded "sRGB-to-display-transformation"
>>> ignores an embedded AdobeRGB profile in images, we have a very strange
>>> form of gamut mapping. At least such images should be rendered from
>>> AdobeRGB to sRGB before rendered to the display.
>>>
>> You would also have very strange gamut mapping if you did this in an
>> application as well. Where would you suggest that transformation happens.
>> Even on the desktop, there are many applications which would simply fail if
>> that is what you want. Mapping from a larger gamut to a smaller gamut
>> always involves compromises. The question a photographer needs to answer
>> is:" Do I want to detect the artifact before I ship the image off to the
>> customer, or should I just assume he won't notice when his on board color
>> management system has bad side effects due to gamut compression?"
> Jan-Peter
> If a customer asks a photographer for images which should be used in web
> pages or in office presentations, it is good practice to that the
> photographer converts this images to sRGB before sending it to the customer.
>
> But if the photographer itself uses the tablet for working e.g. with
> synchronized folders, he wants to work with files in other colorspaces
> than sRGB.
> In this case, the viewer or editing applications need to do some color
> management. For developing such applications, it would very much help,
> if the tablet OS delivers a monitor-profile for all color aware
> applications. The factory setting of the display profile could be sRGB,
> but advanced users could use e.g. an App and measurement instrument from
> X-Rite to make an individual display profile
>
> Only if the display profile is managed from the system, we have a chance
> for the same colormanagement in different Apps. As no tablet OS
> supports a systemwide display profile, App developers like e.g. Adobe
> (Adobe Reader, Color Lava....), X-Rite/Pantone (MyPantone), Datacolor
> (Viewer application) are developing their own capsulated colormanagement
> frameworks...
>
> This results to a quite frustrating user experience concerning color on
> tablets. And frustrated users don´t buy the nice X-Rite instruments....
>
>
> Tom:
> Do you agree that it makes sense, that at at least iOS and Android,
> should have a central place for a display profile, which could be sRGB
> as a preset and a also ICC compliant CMM which would be available for
> highend Apps and ignored from standard Apps ?
>
> Do you also agree, that the ICC should recommend this functionality to
> Apple and Google ?
>
>
> Best regards
> Jan-Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/1/11 10:18 AM, "Jan-Peter Homann"<email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Tom and all
>>> Some comments in the text:
>>>
>>> Am 01.08.11 15:25, schrieb Tom Lianza:
>>>> 1. The mobile network providers don't want to see a lot of images on the
>>>> network. They use bandwidth (which you are paying for) and it can have a
>>>> real impact on through put in crowded urban networks. Mobile providers,
>>>> especially in the US, would rather not have to deal with the issues images
>>>> at all.
>>> Mobile devices today have access both to the mobile network and to W-Lan
>>> networks. They have integrated cameras and provide applications like
>>> e.g. image and PDF viewers, where the users expects support for
>>> ICC-profiles in images, pdf files and other data.
>>>
>>> Especially in the tablet market, we have a growing group of professional
>>> users like e.g. photographers, people in medical imaging, graphic
>>> designers doing presentations at customer sides....
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2.ICC profiles are effectively user-supplied, binary, meta data which is
>>>> an
>>>> absolute negative security issue on a mobile network. The reason that phone
>>>> applications are so carefully screened and the development environments are
>>>> so tightly bound to the OS is the fundamental security issue. An
>>>> application CANNOT BE ALLOWED to bring down a phone, hence they will be
>>>> restricted to very carefully controlled application memory space. I
>>>> seriously doubt that user supplied profiles will ever be used at the
>>>> highest
>>>> level in a mobile device. At best, it will be application based. An app
>>>> on
>>>> a phone is far more restricted than an application on the desktop. The
>>>> browser issue is more complex because it should run seamlessly in both
>>>> worlds.
>>> Firstly, the device itself should be delivered with a cannend display
>>> ICC-profile and the OS should deliver a framework, that Apps can use the
>>> canned display ICC-profile. The current problem is, that such basic
>>> things are not available for iOS and Android.
>>>
>>> If the App for creating and configuring an individual display
>>> ICC-profile is certified e.g. through Apple and available through the
>>> iTunes Store, I don´t see any security issues.
>>> If people in the professional imaging area already have an instrument
>>> and software for profiling their desktop environment, they probably
>>> would buy an App to profile their iPad, if they have the need for
>>> accurate colors.
>>>
>>>> 3. For traditional color management to work, there must be a source and a
>>>> destination defined BEFORE RENDERING. The question of untagged (source
>>>> unknown) has generally been defined to be sRGB. If that assumption is
>>>> followed in the system, a very good rendering of sRGB to display can be
>>>> done
>>>> with a relatively simple transformation. The fact is that nearly all
>>>> mobile
>>>> devices do this in the hardware pipeline. The need to accommodate a wide
>>>> range of display technologies is well understood and graphics engine
>>>> designers have various color correction hardware built into the chip. From
>>>> the standpoint of the mobile designer, they already have done "color
>>>> management" and the fact that you can't see it or change it is of no
>>>> consequence to them. If you render the image to sRGB, leave it untagged,
>>>> there will be no major surprises, unless something stupid happens in the
>>>> upload process.
>>> What about digital images having AdobeRGB embedded and shared between
>>> desktop, mobile device and the cloud ?
>>>
>>>> 4. I cannot understand how a photographer would allow some alien device,
>>>> with unknown rendering characteristics, perform color management on the
>>>> image. Given that the trend is towards lower gamut, high luminance
>>>> displays, it is very likely that the output after late binding color
>>>> management will clip, in relative colorimetric mode. If the manufacturer
>>>> decides on a perceptual rendering, then the color you see will be very much
>>>> determined by the taste of the platform vendor, not you the photographer.
>>>> In any instance, the result that the end user sees, will not be the image
>>>> the photographer saw.
>>> If an mobile device with hardcoded "sRGB-to-display-transformation"
>>> ignores an embedded AdobeRGB profile in images, we have a very strange
>>> form of gamut mapping. At least such images should be rendered from
>>> AdobeRGB to sRGB before rendered to the display.
>>>
>>> Jan-Peter
>>
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