Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
- Subject: Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
- From: Mark Stegman <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 11:13:15 +1100
Roger, Andrew et al,
Roger, You are good on colour and related issues but I am not so sure about
your movies. I believe you are thinking of the Medusa, a Gorgon of Greek
mythology that could turn men to stone if they look into her eyes. She was
ultimately slain by Perseus who used a mirror to locate the beast before
beheading her in one fell swoop. If my memory serves me correctly this has
been portrayed in a couple versions of Clash of the Titans and/or Jason and
the Argonauts. Both childhood favourites. I am not a biblical expert but if
it had anything to do with Sodom and Gomorrah we'd be more likely to be
buggered (a popular term in the vernacular here) which is probably
appropriate in the context of this discussion.
Having worked in education for a couple of decades trying to teach colour
management to the uninitiated I can relate to your perspective. Getting the
message across to the operators when there are inherent problems in the DNA
of certain molecules just makes things difficult: "It's supposed to work
like this but..." only brings a glaze to their eyes. You only hear about
the problems from the fussy ones because colour reproduction for most users
falls into the 'good enough' category. Just try convincing them of the
benefits of wide gamut monitor. Photographers will spend thousands on a
capture device and lens and display their work on a phone. Monitors capable
of rendering AdobeRGB are still hard to sell. Monitors that display wider
gamuts do not exists AFAIK.
Which raises the point of just how relevant Adobe RGB is. I don't want to
get into the argument about wide gamut, 16 bit editing which I know has its
benefits but this is for a select few. I have always had a problem with the
benefits of wide gamut colour spaces when the majority of workflows are
either low gamut print or monitor based, desktop or mobile. Many major
printing workflows have standardised on sRGB because there are fewer
'surprises' during the conversion process as a result of the severe
clipping that can occur using colorimetric RIs with wider gamut RGB colour
spaces. It also means that there is more consistency across multiple
electronic devices including tablets and phones. Add to that the pressure
of turn-around times in a struggling economic environment and there is
usually little time to 'play'. Operators get less than a minute an image
for editing in some workflows. a lot of it is bath processed. The printing
industry has been hanging on by its fingernails for a long time for a
multitude of reasons. One of the few glimmers of light has been the growth
in cross media publishing and the sustained production of printed
catalogues. Using a colour space that is broadly consistent across multiple
platforms brings the results much closer to what I thought were the
original aims of ICC colour management systems.
In short, wide gamut colour spaces like Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB
(Andrew's favourite) are problematic except for the RIP experts and
aficionados of the photoimaging, print making and the fine art world (in
which I would arguably include myself). You don't get major complaints
because the 'nuances' of colour management inconsistencies are simply lost
on the vast majority of operators, including a lot of self appointed,
so-called 'experts'. Just have a look at some of the curious advice on
other forums like the Linkedin Photoshop Group. When it is problem you call
the vendor or the consultant.
I'll finish by asking some more silly questions...
1. If there are inherent problems with Adobe RGB and they are (arguably)
significant (and ones that only experts understand?) why not develop a new
profile e.g. AdobeRGB (2015), or even AndrewRGB (2015), RogerRGB (2015), as
an alternative? One that is more in tune with the demands of our time? Is
it really that hard?
2. Has sRGB already taken on this role?
As it stands it may be an argument that is truly 'academic' as it seems to
me that Adobe RGB is being gradually(?) pushed into a corner.
Regards,
Mark
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:09 AM, Roger Breton <email@hidden> wrote:
> What are you talking, I "thrive" on starting you up ;-)
>
> I agree, as far as "usage" is concerned, the current implementation of the
> Media White Point for display profile "works". It's a hideous kludge, IMO.
>
> But the moment one starts digging into the technical side of things, as
> other have remarked before me, it's wrong, plain wrong, Andrew, and I don't
> have admiration for those who accepted this "compromise" wherever it was
> conceived of.
>
> / Roger
>
>
>
> There are so many of these hiccups this throughout color management, I'm
> not sure it's worth starting (me) up again. ;-) In the grand schemes of
> things, we've gone 17 years with a working space that was useful early on,
> lesser so today and without AFAIK major complaints from end users.
>
> > On Feb 20, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Roger Breton <email@hidden> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> > I'm not going to hold my breath for a change of this magnitude (10, on
> > the Richter scale) to happen.
> > So many cons for so little pros, in appearance?
>
>
>
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| References: | |
| | >Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Lars Borg <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Steve Upton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Mark Stegman <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Lars Borg <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Andrew Rodney <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Andrew Rodney <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |