Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
- Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
- From: Fons Put via colorsync-users <email@hidden>
- Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 14:31:33 +0000
- Thread-topic: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
There’s nothing like a free lunch. Through OBA’s the paper industry succeeded
to turn paper into mini displays (capture UV-light and emit as blue light).
Lunch is paid by the energy of artificial light sources (OBA’s are not used for
outdoor applications). Artificial light sources are further optimised, the
presence of UV-energy is not required and OBA’s can become irrelevant.
Anyway, for the moment we inspect and characterise viewing light by two
measuring devices:
- visual spectrum (380-730nm, 10nm interval, I1 or similar instruments)
- UV spectrum (230-470nm, 0.5nm interval, Solascope)
Normalizing the overlap of the two measurements towards the visual spectrum
results in a single spectrum in the range 230 - 730)
Best regards,
Fons Put
> On 17 Jun 2019, at 12:54, email@hidden wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination (Refik Telhan)
> 2. RE: ISO-3664:2009 illumination (email@hidden)
> 3. Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination (Claas Bickeböller)
> 4. Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 35 (Malcolm Mackenzie)
> 5. Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 35 (Refik Telhan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 00:58:31 +0300
> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
> To: "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'"
> <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear Roger,
>
> I should have said spectral power distribution "curve" not "data". I have
> superimposed the Client X curve to this curve.
>
> Below is the the image:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzwoj9hpw4ka9m8/CIE-and-new-and-old-graphiclite-ISO-3664+ClientX.jpg?dl=0
>
> This image displays one major problem with regard to ISO 3664:2009. You need
> to have lab-grade measuring devices for checking the light sources. The
> standard requires 5 nm resolution for the measurement data. Typical devices
> can only do 10 nm. MI(UV) requires that the measurement range should start
> from 300 nm. And the typical devices start from 360/380 nm. Hence, widely
> available solutions can only give approximate results with regard to
> compliancy to ISO 3664-2009.
>
> This whole OBA-induced complexity is proving to be too much for the printing
> industry. Artificial lighting is fast losing its UV component and soon
> OBA-related issues will become much less important if not irrelevant.
>
> Best,
>
> Refik
>
>
> On 16.06.2019 15:20, "email@hidden" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Refik!
> I knew this information was "somewhere"...
> So the new code is the letter "E" -- sounds like Sesame Street, "Today,
> we'll learn the letter "E", as in "Elephant", ha! ha! ha! Sorry, I could not
> resist 😉
>
> I could not find the spectral power distribution data, you said was on the
> page?
>
> Thanks / Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 6:03 AM
> To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'
> <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> The lamp code indicates that it is an old one. Below is the link to the
> GTI web page explaining the differences between the old and the new lamps:
>
> https://www.gtilite.com/2011/01/whats-new-in-the-iso-3664-standard/
>
> Below image from that page shows the new lamp codes should end with an E,
> instead of an X.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6euebxuxph0uelc/GTI_Lamp_Codes.jpg?dl=0
>
> The same page also contains the spectral power distributions of the old
> and the new lamps.
>
> New generation Just Normlicht lamps are clearly marked.
>
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/77eyu0wbcd9i6ux/JUST-daylight-5000-proGraphic-ISO.jpg?dl=0
>
> Best,
>
> Refik Telhan
> Light and Color Management Consultancy
>
>
> On 15.06.2019 22:27, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via
> colorsync-users" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=email@hidden
> on behalf of email@hidden> wrote:
>
> I suspect this "old" GTI lamp was manufactured a long time ago.
>
>
>
> https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLRy3q1Y_l3gK8VkWg
>
>
>
> I gather there is a code that identifies lamps that meet the new
> specification.
>
> Does anyone know what code I should be looking for?
>
>
>
> One thing, though.
>
>
>
> I found this lamp installed in an old GretagMacbeth overhead
> luminaires, at
> a client, yesterday.
>
> See the data here, in Excel (measured with Minolta FD-7) :
>
>
>
> https://1drv.ms/x/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLRz_XP0GZyvIEZh7w
>
>
>
> The thing is, according to ISO-3664:2009, the light produced by these
> lamps
> "shall" (or "should") have energy in the UV part of the spectrum. I'm
> not
> sure they specify down to 360nm but that's typically where the optical
> brighteners components in the paper are excited from, according to my
> humble
> information. If the lamp does not produce any energy in that part of
> the
> spectrum, hence, the appearance of the proof "will be compromised". (I
> hope
> TC130 is starting to work on the new type of LED illumination which
> will
> gradually replace Mercury-based fluorescent tubes, because it's going
> to
> happen sooner than later.).
>
>
>
> Just curious, for those who have long measured the "new" 2009 lamps,
> would
> you have some kind of data to share? So that I can compare? GTI lights,
> preferably.
>
>
>
> Thank you / Roger Breton
>
> www.graxx.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>
>
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 18:13:18 -0400
> From: email@hidden
> To: 'Refik Telhan' <email@hidden>,
> "''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'"
> <email@hidden>
> Subject: RE: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
> Message-ID: <02eb01d52490$b4834510$1d89cf30$@videotron.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hi Refik,
>
> Client-X is the "Blue" curve?
>
> I have access to two "lab grade" devices, Minolta FD-7 which, in spectral
> irradiance mode, captures 5nm data (see Excel sheet), and a Gamma Scientific
> GS-1150 which captures 1nm data down to 360nm.
> Sadly, I cannot capture below 360nm range ☹
>
> I have an old OceanOptics USB4000 spectrometer, here, which can go down to
> 300nm BUT I don't have a UV calibrated lamp to reliably measure down to
> 300nm...
>
> I read that stilbene, one of the more popular whitening agent, is mostly
> sensitive in the 360 to 400 nm range?
>
> I agree that soon, due to change in LED lighting, the whole OB issue is going
> to "transform" into either obsolescence or some new kind of "monster"? How is
> the paper industry, who invested so much over the years to take advantage of
> optical brighteners in paper manufacturing, going to "influence" the
> development of new standards of lighting?
>
> Best / Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 5:59 PM
> To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List' <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
>
> Dear Roger,
>
> I should have said spectral power distribution "curve" not "data". I have
> superimposed the Client X curve to this curve.
>
> Below is the the image:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzwoj9hpw4ka9m8/CIE-and-new-and-old-graphiclite-ISO-3664+ClientX.jpg?dl=0
>
> This image displays one major problem with regard to ISO 3664:2009. You need
> to have lab-grade measuring devices for checking the light sources. The
> standard requires 5 nm resolution for the measurement data. Typical devices
> can only do 10 nm. MI(UV) requires that the measurement range should start
> from 300 nm. And the typical devices start from 360/380 nm. Hence, widely
> available solutions can only give approximate results with regard to
> compliancy to ISO 3664-2009.
>
> This whole OBA-induced complexity is proving to be too much for the printing
> industry. Artificial lighting is fast losing its UV component and soon
> OBA-related issues will become much less important if not irrelevant.
>
> Best,
>
> Refik
>
>
> On 16.06.2019 15:20, "email@hidden" <email@hidden> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Refik!
> I knew this information was "somewhere"...
> So the new code is the letter "E" -- sounds like Sesame Street, "Today,
> we'll learn the letter "E", as in "Elephant", ha! ha! ha! Sorry, I could not
> resist 😉
>
> I could not find the spectral power distribution data, you said was on the
> page?
>
> Thanks / Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 6:03 AM
> To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'
> <email@hidden>
> Cc: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> The lamp code indicates that it is an old one. Below is the link to the
> GTI web page explaining the differences between the old and the new lamps:
>
> https://www.gtilite.com/2011/01/whats-new-in-the-iso-3664-standard/
>
> Below image from that page shows the new lamp codes should end with an E,
> instead of an X.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6euebxuxph0uelc/GTI_Lamp_Codes.jpg?dl=0
>
> The same page also contains the spectral power distributions of the old
> and the new lamps.
>
> New generation Just Normlicht lamps are clearly marked.
>
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/77eyu0wbcd9i6ux/JUST-daylight-5000-proGraphic-ISO.jpg?dl=0
>
> Best,
>
> Refik Telhan
> Light and Color Management Consultancy
>
>
> On 15.06.2019 22:27, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via
> colorsync-users" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=email@hidden
> on behalf of email@hidden> wrote:
>
> I suspect this "old" GTI lamp was manufactured a long time ago.
>
>
>
> https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLRy3q1Y_l3gK8VkWg
>
>
>
> I gather there is a code that identifies lamps that meet the new
> specification.
>
> Does anyone know what code I should be looking for?
>
>
>
> One thing, though.
>
>
>
> I found this lamp installed in an old GretagMacbeth overhead
> luminaires, at
> a client, yesterday.
>
> See the data here, in Excel (measured with Minolta FD-7) :
>
>
>
> https://1drv.ms/x/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLRz_XP0GZyvIEZh7w
>
>
>
> The thing is, according to ISO-3664:2009, the light produced by these
> lamps
> "shall" (or "should") have energy in the UV part of the spectrum. I'm
> not
> sure they specify down to 360nm but that's typically where the optical
> brighteners components in the paper are excited from, according to my
> humble
> information. If the lamp does not produce any energy in that part of
> the
> spectrum, hence, the appearance of the proof "will be compromised". (I
> hope
> TC130 is starting to work on the new type of LED illumination which
> will
> gradually replace Mercury-based fluorescent tubes, because it's going
> to
> happen sooner than later.).
>
>
>
> Just curious, for those who have long measured the "new" 2009 lamps,
> would
> you have some kind of data to share? So that I can compare? GTI lights,
> preferably.
>
>
>
> Thank you / Roger Breton
>
> www.graxx.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>
>
> This email sent to email@hidden
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 09:14:54 +0200
> From: Claas Bickeböller <email@hidden>
> To: "'colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List"
> <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Roger,
>
> thanks for mentioning the Konica Minolta FD-7 (it’s quite some time since
> Konica and Minolta merged ;-) ).
> Indeed it reports illuminance data in 5nm steps.
> The FW@HM („optical resolution“) is appr. 10nm (it’s a little less that’s why
> we state „appr. 10nm“).
> Still you get a very very good idea if a viewing cabinet is out of tolerance
> or not.
>
> As to the measurement range: It is true that ISO 3664 demands 300nm - 730nm.
> But, the real life fluorescent tube based D50 simulators do not emit any
> energy below 340nm with a UV peak at 365nm.
> From 365nm to 340nm it goes straight down to 0.
> Thus in practice the standard is too demanding.
>
> Also, yes, the peak excitation wavelength of stilbene based OBAs is around
> 365nm.
>
> Thus with your FD-7 you get the information you need to make a judgment that
> is good enough in practice.
> An instrument starting at 380nm wouldn’t give you any relevant information.
>
> To fulfill the ISO 3664 requirements completely you needed to look at
> something like an Instrument Systems CAS 140.
>
> Hope that answers your questions.
>
> Cheers
>
> Claas
>
>
>
> Claas Bickeböller
> Product Manager Graphic Arts
>
> Konica Minolta Sensing Europe B.V.
> Swiss Branch Dietikon
> Riedstrasse 6
> CH - 8953 Dietikon
>
> Phone: +41 43 322 98 04
> Mobile: +41 79 861 71 77
> Fax: +41 43 322 98 09
> E-mail: email@hidden
> <mailto:email@hidden>
> Website:http://www.konicaminolta.eu <http://www.konicaminolta.eu/>
>
>
>
>> Am 17.06.2019 um 00:13 schrieb Roger Breton via colorsync-users
>> <email@hidden>:
>>
>> Hi Refik,
>>
>> Client-X is the "Blue" curve?
>>
>> I have access to two "lab grade" devices, Minolta FD-7 which, in spectral
>> irradiance mode, captures 5nm data (see Excel sheet), and a Gamma Scientific
>> GS-1150 which captures 1nm data down to 360nm.
>> Sadly, I cannot capture below 360nm range ☹
>>
>> I have an old OceanOptics USB4000 spectrometer, here, which can go down to
>> 300nm BUT I don't have a UV calibrated lamp to reliably measure down to
>> 300nm...
>>
>> I read that stilbene, one of the more popular whitening agent, is mostly
>> sensitive in the 360 to 400 nm range?
>>
>> I agree that soon, due to change in LED lighting, the whole OB issue is
>> going to "transform" into either obsolescence or some new kind of "monster"?
>> How is the paper industry, who invested so much over the years to take
>> advantage of optical brighteners in paper manufacturing, going to
>> "influence" the development of new standards of lighting?
>>
>> Best / Roger
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 5:59 PM
>> To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'
>> <email@hidden>
>> Cc: email@hidden
>> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
>>
>> Dear Roger,
>>
>> I should have said spectral power distribution "curve" not "data". I have
>> superimposed the Client X curve to this curve.
>>
>> Below is the the image:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzwoj9hpw4ka9m8/CIE-and-new-and-old-graphiclite-ISO-3664+ClientX.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> This image displays one major problem with regard to ISO 3664:2009. You need
>> to have lab-grade measuring devices for checking the light sources. The
>> standard requires 5 nm resolution for the measurement data. Typical devices
>> can only do 10 nm. MI(UV) requires that the measurement range should start
>> from 300 nm. And the typical devices start from 360/380 nm. Hence, widely
>> available solutions can only give approximate results with regard to
>> compliancy to ISO 3664-2009.
>>
>> This whole OBA-induced complexity is proving to be too much for the printing
>> industry. Artificial lighting is fast losing its UV component and soon
>> OBA-related issues will become much less important if not irrelevant.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Refik
>>
>>
>> On 16.06.2019 15:20, "email@hidden" <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you, Refik!
>> I knew this information was "somewhere"...
>> So the new code is the letter "E" -- sounds like Sesame Street, "Today,
>> we'll learn the letter "E", as in "Elephant", ha! ha! ha! Sorry, I could
>> not resist 😉
>>
>> I could not find the spectral power distribution data, you said was on the
>> page?
>>
>> Thanks / Roger
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2019 6:03 AM
>> To: ''colorsync-users?lists.apple.com' List'
>> <email@hidden>
>> Cc: email@hidden
>> Subject: Re: ISO-3664:2009 illumination
>>
>> Hi Roger,
>>
>> The lamp code indicates that it is an old one. Below is the link to the
>> GTI web page explaining the differences between the old and the new lamps:
>>
>> https://www.gtilite.com/2011/01/whats-new-in-the-iso-3664-standard/
>>
>> Below image from that page shows the new lamp codes should end with an E,
>> instead of an X.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6euebxuxph0uelc/GTI_Lamp_Codes.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> The same page also contains the spectral power distributions of the old
>> and the new lamps.
>>
>> New generation Just Normlicht lamps are clearly marked.
>>
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/77eyu0wbcd9i6ux/JUST-daylight-5000-proGraphic-ISO.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Refik Telhan
>> Light and Color Management Consultancy
>>
>>
>> On 15.06.2019 22:27, "colorsync-users on behalf of Roger Breton via
>> colorsync-users" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=email@hidden
>> on behalf of email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect this "old" GTI lamp was manufactured a long time ago.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLRy3q1Y_l3gK8VkWg
>>
>>
>>
>> I gather there is a code that identifies lamps that meet the new
>> specification.
>>
>> Does anyone know what code I should be looking for?
>>
>>
>>
>> One thing, though.
>>
>>
>>
>> I found this lamp installed in an old GretagMacbeth overhead
>> luminaires, at
>> a client, yesterday.
>>
>> See the data here, in Excel (measured with Minolta FD-7) :
>>
>>
>>
>> https://1drv.ms/x/s!AkD78CVR1NBqkLRz_XP0GZyvIEZh7w
>>
>>
>>
>> The thing is, according to ISO-3664:2009, the light produced by these
>> lamps
>> "shall" (or "should") have energy in the UV part of the spectrum. I'm
>> not
>> sure they specify down to 360nm but that's typically where the optical
>> brighteners components in the paper are excited from, according to my
>> humble
>> information. If the lamp does not produce any energy in that part of
>> the
>> spectrum, hence, the appearance of the proof "will be compromised". (I
>> hope
>> TC130 is starting to work on the new type of LED illumination which
>> will
>> gradually replace Mercury-based fluorescent tubes, because it's going
>> to
>> happen sooner than later.).
>>
>>
>>
>> Just curious, for those who have long measured the "new" 2009 lamps,
>> would
>> you have some kind of data to share? So that I can compare? GTI lights,
>> preferably.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you / Roger Breton
>>
>> www.graxx.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>> colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>
>> This email sent to email@hidden
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:00:27 +0100
> From: Malcolm Mackenzie <email@hidden>
> To: email@hidden
> Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 35
> Message-ID:
> <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Re; 1. ISO-3664:2009 illumination (email@hidden)
>
> Hello Roger
> Just to add, if the luminaire uses a glass or plastic cover you have to
> check if it is
> effectively UV filtering. Most old and many modern ones are.
> Below is a GTI reading, no glass which is 3664:2009 compliant.
> [image: GTI.png]
> regards
>
> Malcolm Mackenzie
> Colour Engine
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: GTI.png
> Type: image/png
> Size: 13760 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL:
> <https://lists.apple.com/mailman/private/colorsync-users/attachments/20190617/a2405a29/attachment-0001.png>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 13:53:50 +0300
> From: Refik Telhan <email@hidden>
> To: email@hidden
> Cc: Malcolm Mackenzie <email@hidden>
> Subject: Re: colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 35
> Message-ID: <email@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear Malcolm,
>
> A full verification of a light source, as Mr. Claas Bickeböller has said,
> requires a device like Instrument Systems CAS 140CT-152 (with a range of 200
> to 800 nm) which is beyond the reach of the typical printer.
>
> The manufacturers have to take care of the ISO 3664:2009 compliancy of the
> luminaire.
>
> Best,
>
> Refik
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Refik Telhan, EE B.Sc.
>
> Light and Color Management Consultancy
>
> Aydogdu Sokak 12A, Tarabya Mahallesi
> Sariyer, 34457, Istanbul, Turkey
>
> Mobile: + (90) (532) 426 21 87
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On 17.06.2019 12:04, "colorsync-users on behalf of Malcolm Mackenzie via
> colorsync-users" <colorsync-users-bounces+rtelhan=email@hidden
> on behalf of email@hidden> wrote:
>
> Re; 1. ISO-3664:2009 illumination (email@hidden)
>
> Hello Roger
> Just to add, if the luminaire uses a glass or plastic cover you have to
> check if it is
> effectively UV filtering. Most old and many modern ones are.
> Below is a GTI reading, no glass which is 3664:2009 compliant.
> [image: GTI.png]
> regards
>
> Malcolm Mackenzie
> Colour Engine
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>
>
> This email sent to email@hidden
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> colorsync-users mailing list
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> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of colorsync-users Digest, Vol 16, Issue 36
> ***********************************************
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