Re: Strange WOLips importing error
Re: Strange WOLips importing error
- Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
- From: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:34:30 -0500
My comment was about esthetics and not about existence of bugs. One
needs to have very low esthetic desires not to be intimidated by the
look of Eclipse. I started using PB (now Xcode in 1991). Since that
time my collection of its UI disasters is significantly shorter
compared to the one I have for Eclipse.
This is only because you're used to Xcode/PB. For instance, I have no
idea how to modify classpath in Xcode, I find project navigation to be
totally obnoxious, among a pretty long list of other things that drive
me crazy. This is because I'm used to Eclipse. "UI disaster" is
completely relative to your experience.
But when you start the questions about bugs. You are absolutely
correct that there are many very old Xcode & friends related bugs
(my oldest reported and still opened is from 2003), and this is
indeed very frustrating. Nevertheless I moved a significant body of
very old C/Obj-C code (started 14 years ago) to Xcode 3 / Leo within
30 min. And I was abled to move it to GC/Properties within 2 days. I
am trying to move from Tiger to Leo (using practically the same
version of Eclips/WOLips) for the last 2 weeks, and still cannot
produce a working (deployable) version. The same procedure when we
moved to Tiger took me calling a script and a coffee while waiting
to finish the compilation....
You have to appreciate that 5.4 considerably complicated this entire
process and that it's mostly not Eclipse/WOLips. Aside from 5.4 (and
the Leopard crashing bug with 3.3.1 I have mentioned), the process for
installing and running Eclipse/WOLips is basically identical, so I'd
be interested to find out more about what problems you're seeing.
Here another one. I use the same version as you, and I use
<cmd><shift>-t/r constantly. Never crashed! For you it crashes 50%
of the time. Probably because around you is a bit colder, or I type
slower? In our team we observe such discrepancies daily. This does
not encourage my trust in the tool.
If you're observing daily discrepancies amongst your developers, then
it's in everyone's interest to log bugs for these things, because this
is not something I experience. I've said this repeatedly to people --
if you just silently stew over bugs, they're not going to get fixed.
My main complaint is that sarcastic "P.S."'s in emails don't help get
anything done, it just annoys the people that fix these problems. A
large part of my WOLips development time these days is spent focusing
on workflow and trying to streamline processes to make them less
confusing (especially for new users). You could have just as easily
posted a suggestion that we make frameworks automatically reload when /
Lib/Fram changes (... which I've already been working on ...) instead
of posting it in the context of "how much eclipse usability sucks."
These are factors we need to discuss here and at
bugreport.apple.com, and I am really tired of the standard remarks,
that we have to move on. I never will suggest that you or any of the
Eclipse advocates move to something else, but I would also expect
that you start also respecting what others have to say. Our team
develops one of the largest WO projects around, and I do not feel I
have no rights to have my opinion and also to communicate it. OK?
Apple is telling you to move on. We just echo the official
recommendation now, though I have always encouraged people to do so
because I have seen, and everyone I know who has switched has seen, a
substantial productivity gain from doing so. I also believe that the
WOLips team consistently listens to outside opinions -- the Component
Outline View exists entirely because of Thomas' request to get a
better component visualization to help transition from WOB. I WANT
bugs filed ... I LIKE making the tools better (and I know the other
committers do, too). So by all means, make recommendations and discuss
problems, but that respect goes both ways.
ms
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