Re: Strange WOLips importing error
Re: Strange WOLips importing error
- Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
- From: Georg Tuparev <email@hidden>
- Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:00:08 +0200
On Nov 25, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:
My comment was about esthetics and not about existence of bugs. One
needs to have very low esthetic desires not to be intimidated by
the look of Eclipse. I started using PB (now Xcode in 1991). Since
that time my collection of its UI disasters is significantly
shorter compared to the one I have for Eclipse.
This is only because you're used to Xcode/PB. For instance, I have
no idea how to modify classpath in Xcode, I find project navigation
to be totally obnoxious, among a pretty long list of other things
that drive me crazy. This is because I'm used to Eclipse. "UI
disaster" is completely relative to your experience.
I disagree... Eclipse is not just against Xcode philosophy. Eclipse
contradicts any Apple HIG and any sane usability guidelines,
But when you start the questions about bugs. You are absolutely
correct that there are many very old Xcode & friends related bugs
(my oldest reported and still opened is from 2003), and this is
indeed very frustrating. Nevertheless I moved a significant body of
very old C/Obj-C code (started 14 years ago) to Xcode 3 / Leo
within 30 min. And I was abled to move it to GC/Properties within 2
days. I am trying to move from Tiger to Leo (using practically the
same version of Eclips/WOLips) for the last 2 weeks, and still
cannot produce a working (deployable) version. The same procedure
when we moved to Tiger took me calling a script and a coffee while
waiting to finish the compilation....
You have to appreciate that 5.4 considerably complicated this entire
process and that it's mostly not Eclipse/WOLips. Aside from 5.4
(and the Leopard crashing bug with 3.3.1 I have mentioned), the
process for installing and running Eclipse/WOLips is basically
identical, so I'd be interested to find out more about what problems
you're seeing.
Long story, and I will report if we run in a wall. Basically it works
if you know when and how many times you need to open/close projects,
clean them, restart eclipse, restart it with -clean, and when to go to
the local church for a short pray. To get this pattern right just
takes so much time... And of course all usual stuff with EOGen etc.
Here another one. I use the same version as you, and I use
<cmd><shift>-t/r constantly. Never crashed! For you it crashes 50%
of the time. Probably because around you is a bit colder, or I type
slower? In our team we observe such discrepancies daily. This does
not encourage my trust in the tool.
If you're observing daily discrepancies amongst your developers,
then it's in everyone's interest to log bugs for these things,
because this is not something I experience. I've said this
repeatedly to people -- if you just silently stew over bugs, they're
not going to get fixed.
You are right, and I will spend next few minutes in the corner very
ashamed. Should I fill bug reports to Wonder Jira?
My main complaint is that sarcastic "P.S."'s in emails don't help
get anything done, it just annoys the people that fix these
problems. A large part of my WOLips development time these days is
spent focusing on workflow and trying to streamline processes to
make them less confusing (especially for new users). You could have
just as easily posted a suggestion that we make frameworks
automatically reload when /Lib/Fram changes (... which I've already
been working on ...) instead of posting it in the context of "how
much eclipse usability sucks."
My P.S.'s are an expression of huge frustration. About the insane
decision of Apple, and about the fact that few Eclipse advocates are
so vocal, then almost no other opinion could be expressed on this
list. In private I often receive emails telling me that I am not
along. But as it happens in every community, many people are quiet,
and one would get the feeling I and Ken are the only black sheep here.
When I am able to state that the UI of Eclipse is a horror without
being bashed, and when the rights of the developers of using nice
elegant native tools are accepted, I will stop writing P.S.'s.
These are factors we need to discuss here and at
bugreport.apple.com, and I am really tired of the standard remarks,
that we have to move on. I never will suggest that you or any of
the Eclipse advocates move to something else, but I would also
expect that you start also respecting what others have to say. Our
team develops one of the largest WO projects around, and I do not
feel I have no rights to have my opinion and also to communicate
it. OK?
Apple is telling you to move on. We just echo the official
recommendation now, though I have always encouraged people to do so
because I have seen, and everyone I know who has switched has seen,
a substantial productivity gain from doing so. I also believe that
the WOLips team consistently listens to outside opinions -- the
Component Outline View exists entirely because of Thomas' request to
get a better component visualization to help transition from WOB. I
WANT bugs filed ... I LIKE making the tools better (and I know the
other committers do, too). So by all means, make recommendations and
discuss problems, but that respect goes both ways.
Again I bag to differ. My hypothesis is that Apple just followed the
most vocal people of the Wonder community. This was a very comfortable
decision for then because it freed them of investing in tool support.
If the same people would spend the same mental and vocal energy on
supporting the old WO tools, we could be in completely different
environment now.
gt
ms
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