Re: Writing a beginners tutorial, some D2W questions on Webassistant and ERAtachment
Re: Writing a beginners tutorial, some D2W questions on Webassistant and ERAtachment
- Subject: Re: Writing a beginners tutorial, some D2W questions on Webassistant and ERAtachment
- From: David Elliott <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:53:21 -0500
Hi Guido,
I must say I completely disagree with most of what you've said.
Almost exactly three years ago I got started with WebObjects. I had
about 3 weeks to come up with a prototype and 4 weeks to deliver
something that met the basic requirements. Having only ever really
played around with things like PHP and ASP and having only a passing
knowledge of SQL I knew at least enough to know that there was no way
in hell I was going to write something usable in that time frame.
So I spent about day or two researching potentials and stumbled upon
Rentzsch's pages about WO. I then realized I could grab the developer
tools for free from my ADC account. When I saw what D2W could do I
realized that it was the only way I was going to have any chance of
completing the project.
After buying every book on WO available at the local bookstores I
delved right in and learned the basics about how components work.
True, I did start without D2W but that was only a few days of just
following right through the tutorials. From there my boss and I
proceeded to use EOModeler to model the job requirements.
After about a week (keep in mind I had not used WO at all before) we
had something passably usable. While my boss was working on modeling
more of the data I was delving right into the D2W rules engine and
discovering how the assistant wrote its rules. We then got back
together and refined the model and did some D2W customization.
Using D2W for the bulk of the interface and a few display group
components here and there for some specialized reports we were able to
deliver the app in an unbelievably short period of time without either
of us ever having used WO at all. Being able to use the assistant to
select what would and would not show up on the page was a godsend.
Yes, I realize now that the rules engine can be customized even
further with Wonder and that using the Wonder enhanced D2W you can
improve the look of pages even further. But the failing of Wonder is
that it enhances D2W to the point where the assistant becomes useless
and even detrimental yet provides no alternative to the assistant.
In fact, the whole Eclipse/WOLips/Wonder stuff is absolutely horrible
for beginners. If I were to attempt today what I did 3 years ago I'd
have never made it. And even though I am now quite familiar with how
EO and WO and D2W work their magic I still long for the days when I
could click my way through to a nice cookie-cutter app and sprinkle a
few customizations here and there.
About the only thing I agree with is that the first few tutorials
ought to focus on writing web components and working with models.
After a few tutorials though, D2W ought to be introduced because it's
by far the most useful feature for a beginner. And honestly, the
assistant ought to be usable for people starting out. Sure, once
you've customized things to a certain point for certain entities the
simplistic model used by the assistant is no longer useful but until
then it's great and should not be discounted.
-Dave
On Jan 19, 2008, at 4:01 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote:
On 19.01.2008, at 13:47, Johan Henselmans wrote:
The application would be a shop, with a D2W backend for the
products (with ERAttachment for the product-pictures), fulfilment
(some kind of app that could run in an ipod touch) and some
statistics app that would make use of displaygroups and SVG.
The only thing I can say about that: Don't make beginners miserable
with D2W. To use D2W and to be able to customize an application to
your needs, you need a way more deep understanding of WebObjects
than a tutorial can provide.
And personally I think that your tutorial is way overfilled with
stuff. Beginners can take only so much in a tutorial. If you don't
want to write a 600 page book, you will not be able to bring all
that stuff in, add diagrams and screenshots and explain everything a
beginner needs to know. And believe me: I know what I'm talking
about as I'm facing the same problem.
That tutorial is nearly finished, so I am starting with the
DirectToWeb part. On Leopard, the DirectToWeb Assistant does not
work.
If you really want to use D2W - stay away from that rule-breaking,
stupid assistant. Nobody will ever understand D2W in the necessary
way with seeing and writing actual rules. In my opinion that
assistant was a bad idea from the very beginning. And I do a lot of
D2W.
(and no, Rule Editor is not an easy and quick tool if you're a
beginner and you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot)
Again: D2W is WAY OVER THE HEAD for a beginner to be happy with. It
is a very cool technology demonstration and it is an incredibly
powerful tool for WO developers who really understand WO but it is
also something where beginners will hit the wall with the first
customization they want to make.
cug
--
Real-World WebObjects class at the Big Nerd Ranch
March 2008, Frankfurt, Germany
http://www.bignerdranch.com/classes/webobjects.shtml
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (email@hidden)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
This email sent to email@hidden
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (email@hidden)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
This email sent to email@hidden