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Re: Accessing function definitions Radar
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Re: Accessing function definitions Radar


  • Subject: Re: Accessing function definitions Radar
  • From: Laurence Harris <email@hidden>
  • Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:32:36 -0400


On Oct 27, 2006, at 3:24 PM, Syd Polk wrote:

At the risk of sticking my neck out, I'd like to say that I
don't see any hostility in the below comment.

These questions imply that Apple is incompetent.

Strictly speaking, Apple, as a company, doesn't have a competence level.

Either the engineers are
incompetent, or their management is incompetent for hiring with
inappropriate experience.

Or someone fails to recognize the value in providing standard Mac behaviors in development tools.


This is why some people might see it as hostile.
Certainly I see it that way.

Not hostile, but definitely frustrated. It's not just an Xcode issue. When I was using Interface Builder back when Panther was my primary OS, IB had its own extensive collection of "What's up with this?" issues. I couldn't Command-click to select multiple items in windows or menus. I couldn't select a range of items in a menu by Shift- clicking. The Duplicate command was a shortcut for Copy + Paste (it replaces anything you might have on the Clipboard). It was a very long list.


I don't think Apple's engineers are incompetent -- far from it. I think they're sharp folks and nice people to boot. Personally I like them a lot. But there's *some* explanation for the problems people have been discussing over the past few days, and the buck has to stop somewhere. I don't buy the notion that *no one* at Apple bears any responsibility for these issues. I'm inclined to think it's higher than the engineers. Is it lack of Mac experience? An upper level executive somewhere who refuses to hire enough additional engineers to implement the hundreds of changes on the Xcode ToDo list that Chris has mentioned in the past? Do they not have enough people to update an old code base that dates back to Project Builder's pre-Mac OS X days? Something else entirely? Heck if I know. I know Apple's consumer applications behave a lot more like Mac applications than IB or Xcode. I know Apple abandoned development of ResEdit long before people stopped needing it. I know a lot of us are dependent on Xcode now for our livelihood -- we have no viable alternative. I know I used to be a lot more productive in CW and given how long Xcode's been around I shouldn't have to file a Radar explaining how contextual menus are supposed to work.

As a matter of (my) opinion those four questions definitely
come to mind when spending any sort of extended time with
XCode.  One has to ask, are there any "old school" Mac
programmers working on XCode?  From the looks of it, I would
say no- even if this is an unfair statement to make.

I won't even bother listing out my grips with XCode- except
for the scrolling thing-  that really bugs me too!

alex


Insulting Apple and its engineers by asking these questions

It was never my intention to insult anyone, but to convey the perception some of us have and in so doing get them to consider if they're giving enough priority to making Xcode a productive, Mac-like application. If people really wonder those things, I'd say that's indicative of a problem. Criticizing people for expressing those thoughts isn't going to make the problems go away.


is not likely to
endear yourself to any of these engineers on the list, and is certainly not
a way to shed light on any issues you have.

One of my biggest issues is the degree to which Xcode does not facilitate a smooth workflow for me, and much of that seems to stem from a number of un-Mac-like behaviors and awkward ways of doing things. I know this doesn't actually imply that the people who work on it don't have Mac experience, but given the nearly universal use of CodeWarrior as a Mac development IDE prior to Mac OS X, it just seems like someone with a history in Mac development would have used it enough to know the ways in which is superior to Xcode and want to copy those parts to Project Builder/Xcode. Maybe in fact they do but they just don't have the resources. If that's the case I would encourage them to hold off on fancy new features until they can get the basic behaviors corrected and in line with modern Mac guidelines.


The only way that problems will be addressed is by filing bugs.

I just filed one about improving access to function definitions, but not every issue with IB and Xcode fits neatly into a Radar. Also, very competent people at Apple have already documented the correct behavior for a wide range of application features, so why should we take our time as developers to file radars telling Apple engineers how Mac applications are supposed to work? Should I have to file a Radar explaining that contextual menus should only contain commands relevant in the current context? Shouldn't that be obvious from using CMs in almost any application?


Venting and
flaming on this list may feel good, but it does not encourage anybody at
Apple to pay attention to the list.

Venting really doesn't feel that good. It certainly doesn't make *me* feel any better. It does, however, occasionally open up discussions and embolden more people to express themselves. It can also convey that an issue has greater significance than that conveyed by a factually written Radar entry.


I file Radars, but sometimes an issue is too general to put into a Radar. I know good and well that if I file a Radar that says I want Xcode to be more Mac-like, it will be a waste of time. It's also the case that filing Radars causes engineers to look at specific issues, and I think sometimes it would be beneficial for them to step back from the trees and take a look at the forest.

Larry
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  • Follow-Ups:
    • Re: Accessing function definitions Radar
      • From: Cameron Hayne <email@hidden>
References: 
 >RE: Accessing function definitions Radar (From: "Syd Polk" <email@hidden>)

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