Re: Finder f*ck-ups
Re: Finder f*ck-ups
- Subject: Re: Finder f*ck-ups
- From: Martin Orpen <email@hidden>
- Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:03:44 +0100
on 18/8/05 20:45, Matt Deatherage at email@hidden wrote:
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> On 8/18/05 at 1:51 PM, Martin Orpen <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> I call files disappearing before your eyes "pathetic". I call
>> undocumented changes that can screw your scripts and apps "pathetic"
>> too.
>
> I call them "bugs" unless I have specific evidence that someone meant for it
> to work that way. I do not attribute to malicious behavior what can be more
> easily explained by the common, every day errors of programming.
>
>> Put a DVD in your drive and copy the VIDEO_TS folder to your hard
>> disk. You'll find that some disks will copy. Others won't -
>> especially those that are Region 1. You get a "Don't have sufficient
>> privileges error" or "some data could not be read or written (-36)".
>>
>> Click on a the VOB data on a disk that won't copy and you'll find
>> that the files disappear before your eyes.
>>
>> Put the troublesome disk in a Mac running Panther and everything
>> works as expected.
>
> <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>. More importantly, *name a disc.* Identify a
> DVD on which you can make this fail every time on your G4 and G5 machines.
> I'll bet you a muffin at WWDC someday that Apple will go out and at least
> rent, if not buy, the DVD to try to reproduce and fix the bug. (The more
> widely available the disc, the easier it will be to reproduce the bug.)
>
> Your statement "especially those that are Region 1" implies that your drive is
> not set to Region 1, or that you never have the trouble with discs set to
> other regions. If this is true, be sure to say so in the bug report. It may
> depend on the region settings of the drive and they'll need to know that. The
> full system profiler report will help.
>
>> I've tested this on a couple of G4s and 2 G5s and with internal and
>> external DVD drives before posting - but what do I know as your
>> obviously the expert around here... be sure to post back if you've
>> got something useful to say - or just STFU...
>
> I don't waste time listing credentials, but let's see what you've reported
> here.
>
> According to the currently-installed version of MacErrors.h (and, in fact,
> according to every version of Errors.a or Errors.p going back to 1984), error
> -36 is the dreaded "I/O error," one the header file's comment still describes
> as "(bummers)".
>
> With few exceptions, an "I/O error" is a generic error returned by device
> drivers that can't be translated into something more meaningful by file system
> code. The HFS or UFS code knows when directory structures are damaged even if
> the hardware can read the blocks from disk. If the hardware can't read the
> blocks from disk, there's usually no specific Mac OS error code that matches
> whatever low-level information the drive returns, and it gets mapped to -36.
>
> It's also possible that file system code itself will return error -36 if
> there's no better error code to describe some kind of disc funkiness, but it
> is less common.
>
> Your description above is unclear, but it sounds like you're getting *either*
> privilege errors *or* I/O errors when trying to copy files, but not both on
> the same disc. Plus, I see in your original message that you state:
>
>> If I need to copy VOB files I keep getting permission errors and then
>> the files start disappearing from the GUI. I can still see them from
>> the shell, but even cp or mv won't move the data from DVD to disk.
>
> Since the Finder doesn't use cp or mv (or vice-versa), this should have been
> your big clue that the Finder *is not at fault.* Try another program to copy
> the files, anything from Path Finder to File Buddy, and I'll bet you can't
> copy them that way either.
>
> If I had to guess, I would say that either the DVD driver or the UDF file
> system code has new restrictions in Tiger that prohibit copying files in some
> cases. The code may be trying to return a privilege error if you try to read
> the files in an unauthorized way, and that in turn may be propagating in a way
> that confuses higher-level code. Typically, if Finder removes an object from
> a window, it got a file system notification that the directory changed, as in
> you no longer have privileges to see that object. The UDF file system might
> be showing you everything until you try to copy it.
>
> (If this is true, then there is probably a secret API you have to use to read
> these files, one that the DVD playback framework uses but that normal file
> copying programs do not. I don't think Mac The Ripper has this problem, but I
> don't use it so I don't know for sure.) I see some things in the DVD
> framework that imply this, but nothing concrete (you have to use its functions
> to open a VIDEO_TS folder instead of passing in files yourself).
>
> I put in a region 1 disk, since I had one within arm's reach, and tried to
> copy the VIDEO_TS folder. I got a privilege error. I tried with cp and it
> appeared to try really hard on most of the ".VOB" files but never returned any
> output in the time I had to spend on it. No utility I had revealed any
> special permissions, but none of them could copy some of the ".VOB" files.
>
> I'm guessing this is a change in the UDF file system code, especially since
> it's one of the few file systems not part of the Darwin open-source tree so I
> can't go look at the code and see. I can't see any privilege errors that
> would cause normal problems, but every file copying code I tried hung up on
> it. All the files appear to belong to me and have a creation date of exactly
> when the disk was mounted, though I think that's how UDF usually works.
>
> Whatever it is, it's obviously at a lower level than the Finder. If
> functionality was removed, it was probably forced by licensing agreements, and
> Apple may not even be allowed to discuss it for that reason. You know
> Hollywood - close your eyes real hard and no one will figure anything out.
>
> Whether Apple can let you copy these files or not, Finder should at least give
> you a reasonable error message, and tools like "cp" should not spin
> indefinitely trying to do it. The UDF file system should return access
> privileges that make clear what's going to happen. If we're going to
> complain, it should be about the right context. File your bug.
>
>> Maybe you can put the problem into words for me then - as my Xcode
>> apps haven't gotten anywhere near the size of the Finder yet.
>
> When they do, you'll feel differently, especially about users who accuse you
> of bad intentions for common bugs.
>
> Or perhaps you'll blame the Finder, because it's so much easier.
>
> - --
> Matt Deatherage <email@hidden>
> GCSF, Incorporated <http://www.macjournals.com>
>
> "Wanting to meet an author because you like his work is like wanting
> to meet a duck because you like pâté."
> -- Margaret Atwood
>
>
>
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Boy, you love the sound of your own voice don't you Matt?
I've kept your PGP stuff intact so that you know I haven't altered any of
your precious thoughts on the subject.
All that waffle to avoid agreeing that what we have here is a poorly
implemented attempt at copy protection. One that breaks my DVD2PSP script
when I try to move file (using the Finder or the shell). And an undocumented
one to boot .
Just like I guessed.
BTW I'm trying to think of somebody else on this list who sounds as much of
a patronizing wanker as you... But I can't. Feel free to add that moniker to
your list of credentials.
--
Martin Orpen
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