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Re: Cocoa Java futures, NDA's etc
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Re: Cocoa Java futures, NDA's etc


  • Subject: Re: Cocoa Java futures, NDA's etc
  • From: Brian Hannan <email@hidden>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:41:04 -0700

On Oct 26, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Scott Stevenson wrote:

On Oct 26, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Brian Hannan wrote:

Considering KVO would require a Java equivalent of triggerChangeNotificationsForDependentKey, which would mean messing with method dispatch to Java objects

Which begs the question -- instead of hoping for Apple to retrofit Java to work more like Objective-C, why not just use Objective-C?

I don't expect Apple to retrofit anything. Changing the Java object model such that the VM can monitor for changes to properties and fire off broadcasts I'm sure violates the Java security model, and all the work involved with building it.

It's just more mounting evidence that Coca-Java didn't happen the way it was planned. If I have it right, for a time -- before 10.0 -- Apple toyed with replacing Objective-C with Java, and then settled on making them both first class citizens in 10.0, fearing that developers wouldn't want to learn an OS specific language. Years later it seems developers don't mind learning Objective-C, and actually enjoy it. Which I think places Cocoa-Java into essentially maintenance mode, and leaves Apple free to stuff some interesting things into the Objective-C runtime for building MVC apps, since that's what non-Carbon developers are using.

All the more frustrating since Apple never comments about Cocoa-Java, but creates Java stubs for NSController and the like (since I'm guessing that is easy to do given they're probably just spit out by some code generator). Which keeps both the Objective-C and Java App Kit and Foundation more or less as peers, though Apple won't put WebKit into Cocoa-Java. I guess they're stuck and don't want to deprecate Cocoa-Java, keeping what's there superficially up-to-date.

And I'm asking from a purely pragmatic, non-political, non-rhetorical standpoint.

I've built my entire back-end in Java primarily for portability reasons -- it's a server as well. Therefore, I don't use Objective-C natively.

However, I've been a mac user since 1984. What I love about MacOS is Apple puts the user experience first. I use IDEs and tools all day built with Swing. While Apple has done a great deal with Java, the user experience when using a Swing app is that you're using a Swing app with Aqua buttons. It's like painting a dog bright orange -- it's still a dog. And other UI kits like SWT aren't that much better, since there are no sheets, drawers, MacOS X toolbars, etc, etc.

Having a Java backend and wanting to build a true MacOS X client UI that won't confuse or frustrate MacOS users, I chose Cocoa-Java. But if I want to use WebKit, and forthcoming PDFKit and enhanced SearchKit, most likely they won't have Java-Cocoa stubs. And instead of going some horrible JNI route, I'd prefer to suck it up now, and simply move to Objective-C and create Objective-C stubs for my Java classes.

Which is why I've asked if anyone has heard any info from Apple regarding Cocoa-Java and Tiger, given that if they were to add such Cocoa-Java updates it would be big enough for a Tiger-like feature.

Cheers.

--
Brian Hannan
Chief Admiral of Uncle Jam's Navy

"One nation under a groove, gettin' down just for the FUNK of it."


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References: 
 >Re: Cocoa Java futures, NDA's etc (From: jason rusoff <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Cocoa Java futures, NDA's etc (From: Brian Hannan <email@hidden>)
 >Re: Cocoa Java futures, NDA's etc (From: Scott Stevenson <email@hidden>)

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