Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
- Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
- From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 06:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Randy,
Ref your point highlighted in blue below, I agree completely and I hope the List
Manager or any other Apple staff member reading this thread can tell us who that
person or persons may be.
Mark
________________________________
From: Randy Norian <email@hidden>
To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
Cc: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>; Forum ColorSync
<email@hidden>
Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 9:47:59 AM
Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-dev
looks like a list that is more geared toward development community, as they
mention you may see responses from apple engineers. I am not on that list,
perhaps someone who is may be more familiar with suggesting a feature request.
You make good points, I'll take that as a task list and see what I can see.
Again, "hard to believe it isn't a well-known issue" that may be what 1000
people are saying while it may not even be a blip on Apple's radar The only
point I'm making is we really could stand to develop a relationship with someone
who can provide some level of feedback on what is or is not happening WRT this
issue.
On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:05 AM, MARK SEGAL wrote:
I believe to start with, the nature of this "feature request" would be to get
back what was once there: the ability to turn colour management OFF for printing
profiling targets or for whatever other reasons people may need to have it off.
Much has already been written about this, so it's hard to believe that it isn't
a well known issue somewhere within Apple, but you raise a good point here. What
do we know about whether the right information has percolated to the places that
matter in Apple?
>
>I was made to understand that this List is meant to be a starting point. It has
>a List Manager, who is an Apple employee. Hence, it would be useful if the List
>Manager could tell us all to whom he reports issues arising on the List and from
>there, what processes are engaged in which places within Apple Computer inc. to
>evaluate the issues and decide on whether/how to resolve. He may also be able to
>inform us whether such a process has already been engaged on this particular
>matter and what decision was made regarding how to handle it.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Randy Norian <email@hidden>
>To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
>Cc: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>; Forum ColorSync
><email@hidden>
>Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 8:42:54 AM
>Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
>
>My employer has a process ( actually a web page) where field reps or customers
>can submit suggestions for improvements, feature enhancements, etc.
>
>It turned out that most people ignored this approach because
>
>A) it was virtually unpublicized
>B) requestors had no idea who ever saw it
>C) suggestions never seemed to get implemented
>D) there was no feedback on the status of a feature request
>E) nobody understood what -if any -decision making process was applied to the
>suggestions that WERE made
>F) most people assumed someone else must have surely made a similar request
>already, so it was likely already on the books.
>
>Sounds a lot like the situation here. The thought that professional users are
>hoping that some unknown Apple employee may or may not read a certain forum
>somewhere and then may or may not make some recommendation based on their
>assessment of the value of that suggestion... Well, it doesn't seem like a
>recipe for success.
>
>As it turns out, the algorithm for feature requests with my employer partially
>depended on an assessment of severity ( business impact as described by the
>requestor) and also the sheer number of similar requests. So everyone that sat
>back and assumed that the engineers " must surely be aware of the problem" were
>contributing exactly nothing to its resolution.
>
>If the goal here is to get Apple to understand the need and severity of this
>feature, perhaps this community should make a concerted effort to understand the
>process used by Apple to evaluate and incorporate feature requests.
>
>That process may also rely on the quantity of requests. A well- written note by
>one of you top- tier consultants may carry less weight than five requests from
>average users.
>
>So let's figure out the process, and then use it as effectively as possible.
>Posting here seems to be of little use when it comes to getting apple's
>attention?
>
>I will investigate thru my channels at work, as surely we have some level of
>contact with Apple development. ( I work for xerox) I am sure many of you must
>have connections to pursue, as well. For example, if anyone has contacts within
>Adobe, that would be a good route to investigate as it should lead to apple
>development at some point.
>
>I'll let you know what I find!
>
>Randy Norian
>
>Sent from my iPod
>
>On Apr 27, 2011, at 6:49 AM, MARK SEGAL <email@hidden> wrote:
>
>> Very helpful insights Chris.
>>
>> You relate as fact, which you are well-positioned to do, that a great many
>> people have experienced problems with ICC CM only on Mac, but not on Windows
>>or
>> Linux. In the specific instance of not being able to disable CM for purposes
>>of
>> printing profiling targets, if my memory serves me correctly, this has been
>> identified as an issue triggered by a Mac OSX up-date - not the Epson driver
>>and
>> not Photoshop. If this is all correct, that tells me Apple should do
>something
>> about it. I don't buy into the notion that it's normal and acceptable because
>>it
>> only affects x% of the client base, notwithstanding that it's broken and
very
>> important to that client group, whether they are large or small. Those
people
>> invested their confidence and money in Apple computer only to be let down
>>badly
>> on this stuff. If this is what informs Apple's corporate ethics, I can only
>> express my opinion that it's abusive to treat customers as statistically
>> insignificant, rather than acknowledging there's a legitimate issue facing
>>those
>> customers and fixing it.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>
>> To: Forum ColorSync <email@hidden>
>> Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 2:30:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 26, 2011, at 5:36 PM, MARK SEGAL wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for trying Chris, and I hope we hear more from you on this as you
can
>>> manage it, your time permitting.
>>>
>>> How does the imaging community get through the heads of key people at Apple
>>> that they need to correct what they've messed up?
>>>
>>
>>
>> I don't have a good suggestion, maybe others do? I have heard they read
>>feedback
>> from http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>
>>
>> I do not think the key people at Apple responsible for this component
>consider
>> the current behavior incorrect or messed up. If they did, I have no reason
to
>> believe they wouldn't fix it. Once Apple considers something not working
>> correctly, I generally feel they're rather motivated to fix it. Maybe not
>> instantly in days or weeks, but it eventually does get fixed.
>>
>>
>> I don't know if the user pain is not being communicated. I do think that the
>> current behavior seems reasonable and clear to Apple, and aren't really
>> impressed that certain developers continue to have problems with this area
to
>> the point they've arrived at, "this must be too difficult for them, we need
>to
>> step in and figure out a different way of handling this use case."
>>
>> All speculation on my part.
>>
>> What is not speculation: I know for a fact large numbers of professional and
>> amateur photographers who depend on ICC workflows have run into color
>>management
>> problems, over the past 7+ years, only on Mac OS, and only in the context of
>> printing profile targets and prematched image content, i.e. a need for a
>clear
>> off switch for ColorSync. And what's happening is that "off switch" is being
>> second guessed instead of considered a sacrosanct, clear cutoff. I've had
the
>> problem. I've had four years of SVA masters photography students
>>intermittently
>> have the the problem, with the past two years being the worst I've ever
seen.
>> I've had customers have this problem. And I've had colleagues have the
>>problem.
>> I see no light at the end of the tunnel, or improvement in predicted what
OS,
>> driver, or application update is going to "break" and cause yet a new
>> manifestation of inconsistent printing where ColorSync off is required.
>>
>> And "the problem" does not manifest itself in a way that makes it obvious
>>there
>> is a role for Apple to even look at the problem, let alone own it. The most
>> obvious component to blame for prints that don't come out right is the print
>> driver, and a close second is the application producing the print job.
>>
>> But I keep coming back to, these problems don't happen on Windows. They
don't
>> happen on Linux. There is never any second guessing, or even first guessing,
>>by
>> system level color management on those platforms. They require engraved
>> invitations for system level color management to come to the party. On Mac
OS
>> even an engraved uninvitation can be questioned. It's seriously like a
booger
>> you can't flick off, sometimes. That's just fragile and in my view is the
>>source
>> of why we keep seeing these print related problems in the very specific case
>>of
>> printing ICC profile targets, and (application) prematched print jobs. That
>is
>> an inherently small market so there may also just be a small number of
>> complaints relative to the larger user pool, and these complaints are
>> statistically "normal" or "acceptable."
>>
>> And so it goes.
>>
>>
>> Chris Murphy _______________________________________________
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Mosport GammaGathering! Aug 10-14 2011
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Randy Norian
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