Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
- Subject: Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
- From: Mark Stegman <email@hidden>
- Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 16:44:40 +1100
Roger,
I find the main reason people use AdobeRGB is because they have been told
bigger is better. This is not necessarily the case, something I've been
heard to say before although in another context.
I have had this discussion with Andrew (I am sure will correct me if I'm
wrong). He prefers ProPhoto RGB, a even larger colour gamut, especially
when working in a Raw converter like Lightroom. As I understand his
argument, it provides a gamut large enough to more faithfully store the
primary colour values captured by the imaging device in the original scene
and therefore allows for more faithful reproduction when editing and
ultimately rendering on other wide gamut devices now and/or in the future.
This might be best practice for storing images of high quality and value
with unique colour characteristics (e.g. digital catalogues of fine art)
however, it is not a priority in contemporary publishing where Raw
workflows are often seen as a luxury.
My main problem with working in gamuts wider than sRGB is that most of the
monitors, let alone the printers, cannot faithfully render what might be in
the file as the colours may be outside the gamut of the display. Like I
said, It's hard enough getting professionals to buy a wide gamut monitor
let alone the general public. Add to that a working environment with
viewing conditions that are far from ideal and you can see where it's
going. For me, this is colour management 101. What you see is supposed to
be what you get. No tricks, no secrets, no problems. It was going to
simplify the process, not over engineer it.
Mark
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Roger Breton <email@hidden> wrote:
> Mark,
>
>
>
> I confess I have sRGB tattooed all over my face…
>
>
>
> I hope that, as more and more people become educated on color, they learn
> to develop the skills required to choose the best color spaces for their
> work. Too many times, though, I see users sticking to AdobeRGB for no other
> reasons than the fact that it has Adobe’s name on it. Then they become
> accustomed to that “look” and learn to like it. Me, I say, if the scene
> hasn’t been rendered to AdobeRGB from some external spaces like a camera or
> a scanner space in the first place, if all the user does is blindly assigns
> AdobeRGB on open to random images, then I think it does more harm than
> good. Many images with skin tones, for instance, tend to look awfully red
> when blindly assigned AdobeRGB? In my humble work, 8 times out of 10, I end
> up removing AdobeRGB and work with sRGB instead. But I’m not stupid, as I
> teach my students, the first order of business when opening up images with
> embedded profiles is to honor the intent of the color. Then, it’s a matter
> of analyzing the scene and deciding the best course of action, which may be
> to retain AdobeRGB.
>
>
>
> Best / Roger
>
>
>
> From: Mark Stegman [mailto:email@hidden]
> Sent: 20 février 2015 19:13
> To: Roger Breton
> Cc: ColorSync
> Subject: Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point
>
>
>
> Roger, Andrew et al,
>
>
>
> Roger, You are good on colour and related issues but I am not so sure
> about your movies. I believe you are thinking of the Medusa, a Gorgon of
> Greek mythology that could turn men to stone if they look into her eyes.
> She was ultimately slain by Perseus who used a mirror to locate the beast
> before beheading her in one fell swoop. If my memory serves me correctly
> this has been portrayed in a couple versions of Clash of the Titans and/or
> Jason and the Argonauts. Both childhood favourites. I am not a biblical
> expert but if it had anything to do with Sodom and Gomorrah we'd be more
> likely to be buggered (a popular term in the vernacular here) which is
> probably appropriate in the context of this discussion.
>
>
>
> Having worked in education for a couple of decades trying to teach colour
> management to the uninitiated I can relate to your perspective. Getting the
> message across to the operators when there are inherent problems in the DNA
> of certain molecules just makes things difficult: "It's supposed to work
> like this but..." only brings a glaze to their eyes. You only hear about
> the problems from the fussy ones because colour reproduction for most users
> falls into the 'good enough' category. Just try convincing them of the
> benefits of wide gamut monitor. Photographers will spend thousands on a
> capture device and lens and display their work on a phone. Monitors capable
> of rendering AdobeRGB are still hard to sell. Monitors that display wider
> gamuts do not exists AFAIK.
>
>
>
> Which raises the point of just how relevant Adobe RGB is. I don't want to
> get into the argument about wide gamut, 16 bit editing which I know has its
> benefits but this is for a select few. I have always had a problem with the
> benefits of wide gamut colour spaces when the majority of workflows are
> either low gamut print or monitor based, desktop or mobile. Many major
> printing workflows have standardised on sRGB because there are fewer
> 'surprises' during the conversion process as a result of the severe
> clipping that can occur using colorimetric RIs with wider gamut RGB colour
> spaces. It also means that there is more consistency across multiple
> electronic devices including tablets and phones. Add to that the pressure
> of turn-around times in a struggling economic environment and there is
> usually little time to 'play'. Operators get less than a minute an image
> for editing in some workflows. a lot of it is bath processed. The printing
> industry has been hanging on by its fingernails for a long time for a
> multitude of reasons. One of the few glimmers of light has been the growth
> in cross media publishing and the sustained production of printed
> catalogues. Using a colour space that is broadly consistent across multiple
> platforms brings the results much closer to what I thought were the
> original aims of ICC colour management systems.
>
>
>
> In short, wide gamut colour spaces like Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB
> (Andrew's favourite) are problematic except for the RIP experts and
> aficionados of the photoimaging, print making and the fine art world (in
> which I would arguably include myself). You don't get major complaints
> because the 'nuances' of colour management inconsistencies are simply lost
> on the vast majority of operators, including a lot of self appointed,
> so-called 'experts'. Just have a look at some of the curious advice on
> other forums like the Linkedin Photoshop Group. When it is problem you call
> the vendor or the consultant.
>
>
>
> I'll finish by asking some more silly questions...
>
>
>
> 1. If there are inherent problems with Adobe RGB and they are (arguably)
> significant (and ones that only experts understand?) why not develop a new
> profile e.g. AdobeRGB (2015), or even AndrewRGB (2015), RogerRGB (2015), as
> an alternative? One that is more in tune with the demands of our time? Is
> it really that hard?
>
>
>
> 2. Has sRGB already taken on this role?
>
>
>
> As it stands it may be an argument that is truly 'academic' as it seems to
> me that Adobe RGB is being gradually(?) pushed into a corner.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:09 AM, Roger Breton <email@hidden <mailto:
> email@hidden> > wrote:
>
> What are you talking, I "thrive" on starting you up ;-)
>
> I agree, as far as "usage" is concerned, the current implementation of the
> Media White Point for display profile "works". It's a hideous kludge, IMO.
>
> But the moment one starts digging into the technical side of things, as
> other have remarked before me, it's wrong, plain wrong, Andrew, and I don't
> have admiration for those who accepted this "compromise" wherever it was
> conceived of.
>
> / Roger
>
>
>
> There are so many of these hiccups this throughout color management, I'm
> not sure it's worth starting (me) up again. ;-) In the grand schemes of
> things, we've gone 17 years with a working space that was useful early on,
> lesser so today and without AFAIK major complaints from end users.
>
> > On Feb 20, 2015, at 8:42 AM, Roger Breton <email@hidden <mailto:
> email@hidden> > wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> > I'm not going to hold my breath for a change of this magnitude (10, on
> > the Richter scale) to happen.
> > So many cons for so little pros, in appearance?
>
>
>
>
>
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| References: | |
| | >Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Graeme Gill <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Lars Borg <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Steve Upton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Mark Stegman <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Lars Borg <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Andrew Rodney <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Andrew Rodney <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |
| | >Re: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Mark Stegman <email@hidden>) |
| | >RE: Silly question department, Display Media White Point (From: Roger Breton <email@hidden>) |