Re: Any WWDC News
Re: Any WWDC News
- Subject: Re: Any WWDC News
- From: Trae Nickelson <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:08:41 -0500
Karl,
You are more patient than I am. And I hope you are right. In fact, I
confess that I still feel a twinge of naive optimism even when I read
your predictions below.
But the parts of your response that really stand out to me are "...will
probably..." and "...I think..." and "... Apple have hinted...".
That's not enough. YOU deserve to KNOW. I deserve to know. Berney
deserves to know - he paid $3000+, travelled, and has taken time away
from work and family to KNOW. I won't accepting guessing as part of
the package any more.
Apple's silence has got to tell you something. It looks like they are
confused. I don't think they know what they're doing. They have been
handed a big pile of hundred-dollar bills (inherited from NeXT), and
they are wiping their butts with the bills.
Don't you know that they read the items in this list - Cliff Tuell and
company? How can they sit by and let this happen? How can they watch
us all flounder around in the name of their cause and just leave us
hanging? How can they not camp out on Steve Job's office stoop until
they make someone understand what is being pissed away? There are only
two possible answers: Either they are just not the right people for
the job, or they realize something we don't - that there is no future
for WebObjects. At least not outside of Apple.
But more importantly - MUCH more importantly - the problem with WO does
not lie with the toolset. I even like WO Builder for goodness sake!
All the IDE and tool advancements in the world will not fix what's gone
horribly wrong with WebObjects. Such improvements are like putting a
fresh coat of paint in a house that's burning to the ground.
I have a current client that just blown-away by how fast and
inexpensively I was able to develop a web-based application for them
using WebObjects. The app is flawless, they have nothing but great
things to say about it. Here's the kicker - they absolutely insist on
redoing the entire thing in .NET. They even want me to do it for them!
How can you explain this? This should be impossible! This would
never enter the realm of possibility if Apple and its WebObjects team
were pulling their weight and WebObjects was where it deservedly should
be in IT mind-share.
Where will I go? Currently, I have no idea. Right now I'm on the
WebObjects ship, and we're out in front. But our captain and crew are
drunk and insane. And a few other ships are on the horizon and
gaining. I don't know when they'll catch up, but they will - I don't
care how pretty our ship is - they will catch up. And when they do -
man overboard!
All respect intended,
Trae
On Jun 30, 2004, at 3:13 PM, Karl Gretton wrote:
Where would you go to? As you state, most of the other stuff is crap.
I think that we are seeing significant commitment from Apple to keep
WO up to date and compatible with the latest releases of Xcode. It
works well with Xcode 1.5 today including much improved indexing and
code completion.
EOModeller will probably go away with Xcode 2.0 and WO Builder is the
only serious hole. It either needs rewriting or addons for GOlive and
Dreamweaver developing.
I think that Apple recognises the work that the Wonder team has done
and uses a lot of that stuff internally. Apple have hinted that it
might even be blessed in part in the future if they can overcome IP
and legal issues.
Personally, after returning to WO a year or so ago after wandering the
wilderness in Java for a few years (and rewrite, refactor, redesign
that accompanies that with each new release, fix, promise and app
server) WO is a welcome and refreshing place to be.
It just works and has some unbelievably strong technologies including
arguably the best OR framework and a unique Rules driven environment
for just about everything else.
Good luck wherever you land. Although I suspect we will be welcoming
you back in a year or two.
Karl
On 30-Jun-04, at 12:56 PM, Trae Nickelson wrote:
Thanks for the frankness, Berney. I think you have provided the last
straw for me. Your news is heart-breaking really.
I am assuming that you sent your thoughts after attending the
633-WebObjects Overview session, promising "an overview and roadmap
for WebObjects" and "the exciting news that Apple has planned for
WebObjects in the year ahead."
I am completely baffled by it all. Apple is trying to make inroads
into enterprise, it owns absolutely the most mature and robust
enterprise-level frameworks (WO & EO), its technology along with some
aggressive marketing could easily make a joke of other web app
vendors (IBM, BEA, Macromedia) - AND ITS LAYING A BIG EGG!
If you traveled all that way, and paid your admission (not cheap by
any means), and still did not receive a fair, upfront indication of
what the %#$@ Apple plans to do with WebObjects - you deserve a full
refund. Raise a little hell while you're there. Go to the remaining
WO/EO sessions and make those spineless twits "put-up or shut-up".
They should at least muster up the balls to tell all of us to move
on, that there is nothing more to see here, that we (the WO
community) are fighting a losing battle.
I feel your pain, buddy; I know a lot of us do. This is the 4th or
5th WWDC in a row where I was just POSITIVE that Apple would prove
that its head was now out of its ass and we would hear something that
we are all longing to hear. I've grown numb to it now. Sad.
There is a great post to the list today from the Project Wonder folks
announcing Project Wonder 2.0 . A brave and valiant effort by a
bunch of really sharp minds. But I fear they are wasting their
notable talents rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. They should
not have to be carrying the platform the way they are - Apple quite
frankly has done nothing to deserve such enthusiasm or support.
Wonder Dev Team, by no means do I mean to belittle your
accomplishments. Quite the contrary, I am enraged that you are
providing the only real progress in the WO world. You deserve
better, and I don't think you're going to get it from Apple. Let it
go. Pull the plug.
I'm jumping ship. I would suggest we all consider doing the same.
Let's put this thing out of its misery and move on with our lives.
Trae Nickelson
WebObjects Developer (6 years)
Houston, TX
I have to say that I walked away very depressed from today's WO
session. In a conference where the hype is all about a beta version
of
Xcode (v1.5), and a major upgrade to the toolset (v2.0) "within a
year", the fact that WO didn't say a word about the future, speaks
volumes about its future. They couldn't even say a bug fix release
was
in the works..
WO was a great tool, and still has features you can't find elsewhere,
but the Java world is moving quickly and others will get there soon.
I can't afford to get linked to a technology that stagnates or a
company that is more focused on selling a proprietary set of APIs.
Mac
OS X is the best operating system in the world, but right now I don't
see much that differentiates Cupertino from Redmond. Both want to
"lock-in" their bread and butter. At least that's how I read the
Xcode
2.0 modeling effort. It's not really a pre-curser to an updated EOF.
Sorry for the negativity. This was my first WWDC and WO was the
reason
I came here. I think I'll spend some time down at the JavaOne
conference tomorrow.
Berney Bradley
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