Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
- Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
- From: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
That's for bugs Randy. If Apple doesn't consider this to be a bug, it would
likely not be addressed any further there.
Mark
________________________________
From: Randy Norian <email@hidden>
To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
Cc: Forum ColorSync <email@hidden>
Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 10:05:59 AM
Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
well, it looks like this is the portal for developers to make bug/ feature
requests
www.bugreporter.apple.com
which takes me to this page
You must be a registered Apple Developer to file bugs via Bug Reporter.
Register at http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/
So maybe if 100 people register as apple developers, we can make 100 requests
for the same bug fix/ feature request.
I would guess that some list members are on the developer list. Searching the
archives, when Todd Wellman says "this feature request is being worked on,
according to my sources" I assume he knows someone who has that information.
We aren't asking for corporate espionage, just feedback on whether an issue has
been recognized and is being addressed- or whether it needs to be submitted.
Todd? You still on here?
BTW Todd now works for Apple!
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/todd-wellman/4/784/893
Anybody connected to him via linked? Maybe its time to use that site, for once.
LoL. I am 4 steps away from Todd on Linkedin. Anyone closer than that?
Randy N
On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:51 AM, MARK SEGAL wrote:
Randy,
>
>Ref your point highlighted in blue below, I agree completely and I hope the List
>Manager or any other Apple staff member reading this thread can tell us who that
>person or persons may be.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Randy Norian <email@hidden>
>To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
>Cc: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>; Forum ColorSync
><email@hidden>
>Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 9:47:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
>
>
>http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-dev
>
>
>looks like a list that is more geared toward development community, as they
>mention you may see responses from apple engineers. I am not on that list,
>perhaps someone who is may be more familiar with suggesting a feature request.
>
>
>You make good points, I'll take that as a task list and see what I can see.
>Again, "hard to believe it isn't a well-known issue" that may be what 1000
>people are saying while it may not even be a blip on Apple's radar The only
>point I'm making is we really could stand to develop a relationship with someone
>who can provide some level of feedback on what is or is not happening WRT this
>issue.
>
>On Apr 27, 2011, at 8:05 AM, MARK SEGAL wrote:
>
>I believe to start with, the nature of this "feature request" would be to get
>back what was once there: the ability to turn colour management OFF for printing
>profiling targets or for whatever other reasons people may need to have it off.
>Much has already been written about this, so it's hard to believe that it isn't
>a well known issue somewhere within Apple, but you raise a good point here. What
>do we know about whether the right information has percolated to the places that
>matter in Apple?
>>
>>I was made to understand that this List is meant to be a starting point. It has
>>a List Manager, who is an Apple employee. Hence, it would be useful if the List
>>Manager could tell us all to whom he reports issues arising on the List and from
>>there, what processes are engaged in which places within Apple Computer inc. to
>>evaluate the issues and decide on whether/how to resolve. He may also be able to
>>inform us whether such a process has already been engaged on this particular
>>matter and what decision was made regarding how to handle it.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Randy Norian <email@hidden>
>>To: MARK SEGAL <email@hidden>
>>Cc: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>; Forum ColorSync
>><email@hidden>
>>Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 8:42:54 AM
>>Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
>>
>>My employer has a process ( actually a web page) where field reps or customers
>>can submit suggestions for improvements, feature enhancements, etc.
>>
>>It turned out that most people ignored this approach because
>>
>>A) it was virtually unpublicized
>>B) requestors had no idea who ever saw it
>>C) suggestions never seemed to get implemented
>>D) there was no feedback on the status of a feature request
>>E) nobody understood what -if any -decision making process was applied to the
>>suggestions that WERE made
>>F) most people assumed someone else must have surely made a similar request
>>already, so it was likely already on the books.
>>
>>Sounds a lot like the situation here. The thought that professional users are
>>hoping that some unknown Apple employee may or may not read a certain forum
>>somewhere and then may or may not make some recommendation based on their
>>assessment of the value of that suggestion... Well, it doesn't seem like a
>>recipe for success.
>>
>>As it turns out, the algorithm for feature requests with my employer partially
>>depended on an assessment of severity ( business impact as described by the
>>requestor) and also the sheer number of similar requests. So everyone that sat
>>back and assumed that the engineers " must surely be aware of the problem" were
>>contributing exactly nothing to its resolution.
>>
>>If the goal here is to get Apple to understand the need and severity of this
>>feature, perhaps this community should make a concerted effort to understand the
>>process used by Apple to evaluate and incorporate feature requests.
>>
>>That process may also rely on the quantity of requests. A well- written note by
>>one of you top- tier consultants may carry less weight than five requests from
>>average users.
>>
>>So let's figure out the process, and then use it as effectively as possible.
>>Posting here seems to be of little use when it comes to getting apple's
>>attention?
>>
>>I will investigate thru my channels at work, as surely we have some level of
>>contact with Apple development. ( I work for xerox) I am sure many of you must
>>have connections to pursue, as well. For example, if anyone has contacts within
>>Adobe, that would be a good route to investigate as it should lead to apple
>>development at some point.
>>
>>I'll let you know what I find!
>>
>>Randy Norian
>>
>>Sent from my iPod
>>
>>On Apr 27, 2011, at 6:49 AM, MARK SEGAL <email@hidden> wrote:
>>
>>> Very helpful insights Chris.
>>>
>>> You relate as fact, which you are well-positioned to do, that a great many
>>> people have experienced problems with ICC CM only on Mac, but not on Windows
>>>or
>>> Linux. In the specific instance of not being able to disable CM for purposes
>>>of
>>> printing profiling targets, if my memory serves me correctly, this has been
>>> identified as an issue triggered by a Mac OSX up-date - not the Epson driver
>>>and
>>> not Photoshop. If this is all correct, that tells me Apple should do
>>something
>>> about it. I don't buy into the notion that it's normal and acceptable because
>>>it
>>> only affects x% of the client base, notwithstanding that it's broken and
>very
>>> important to that client group, whether they are large or small. Those
>people
>>> invested their confidence and money in Apple computer only to be let down
>>>badly
>>> on this stuff. If this is what informs Apple's corporate ethics, I can only
>>> express my opinion that it's abusive to treat customers as statistically
>>> insignificant, rather than acknowledging there's a legitimate issue facing
>>>those
>>> customers and fixing it.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Chris Murphy <email@hidden>
>>> To: Forum ColorSync <email@hidden>
>>> Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 2:30:58 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Printing with No Color Management (again)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2011, at 5:36 PM, MARK SEGAL wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for trying Chris, and I hope we hear more from you on this as you
>can
>>>> manage it, your time permitting.
>>>>
>>>> How does the imaging community get through the heads of key people at
Apple
>>>> that they need to correct what they've messed up?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't have a good suggestion, maybe others do? I have heard they read
>>>feedback
>>> from http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>
>>>
>>> I do not think the key people at Apple responsible for this component
>>consider
>>> the current behavior incorrect or messed up. If they did, I have no reason
>to
>>> believe they wouldn't fix it. Once Apple considers something not working
>>> correctly, I generally feel they're rather motivated to fix it. Maybe not
>>> instantly in days or weeks, but it eventually does get fixed.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if the user pain is not being communicated. I do think that
the
>>> current behavior seems reasonable and clear to Apple, and aren't really
>>> impressed that certain developers continue to have problems with this area
>to
>>> the point they've arrived at, "this must be too difficult for them, we need
>>to
>>> step in and figure out a different way of handling this use case."
>>>
>>> All speculation on my part.
>>>
>>> What is not speculation: I know for a fact large numbers of professional
and
>>> amateur photographers who depend on ICC workflows have run into color
>>>management
>>> problems, over the past 7+ years, only on Mac OS, and only in the context
of
>>> printing profile targets and prematched image content, i.e. a need for a
>>clear
>>> off switch for ColorSync. And what's happening is that "off switch" is
being
>>> second guessed instead of considered a sacrosanct, clear cutoff. I've had
>the
>>> problem. I've had four years of SVA masters photography students
>>>intermittently
>>> have the the problem, with the past two years being the worst I've ever
>seen.
>>> I've had customers have this problem. And I've had colleagues have the
>>>problem.
>>> I see no light at the end of the tunnel, or improvement in predicted what
>OS,
>>> driver, or application update is going to "break" and cause yet a new
>>> manifestation of inconsistent printing where ColorSync off is required.
>>>
>>> And "the problem" does not manifest itself in a way that makes it obvious
>>>there
>>> is a role for Apple to even look at the problem, let alone own it. The most
>>> obvious component to blame for prints that don't come out right is the
print
>>> driver, and a close second is the application producing the print job.
>>>
>>> But I keep coming back to, these problems don't happen on Windows. They
>don't
>>> happen on Linux. There is never any second guessing, or even first guessing,
>>>by
>>> system level color management on those platforms. They require engraved
>>> invitations for system level color management to come to the party. On Mac
>OS
>>> even an engraved uninvitation can be questioned. It's seriously like a
>booger
>>> you can't flick off, sometimes. That's just fragile and in my view is the
>>>source
>>> of why we keep seeing these print related problems in the very specific case
>>>of
>>> printing ICC profile targets, and (application) prematched print jobs. That
>>is
>>> an inherently small market so there may also just be a small number of
>>> complaints relative to the larger user pool, and these complaints are
>>> statistically "normal" or "acceptable."
>>>
>>> And so it goes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris Murphy _______________________________________________
>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>
>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
>>> Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>>>
>>> This email sent to email@hidden
>>
>
>Mosport GammaGathering! Aug 10-14 2011
>
>
>http://www.gammagathering.rg500delta.com/mosport/Mosport_Welcome.html
>
>
>Randy Norian
>email@hidden
>
>
>
>
>
Mosport GammaGathering! Aug 10-14 2011
http://www.gammagathering.rg500delta.com/mosport/Mosport_Welcome.html
Randy Norian
email@hidden
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Colorsync-users mailing list (email@hidden)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
This email sent to email@hidden