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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Mike Schrag)
2. Eclipse forgets filters (Georg Tuparev)
3. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Mike Schrag)
4. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Georg Tuparev)
5. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Georg Tuparev)
6. Re: VelocityEOGenerator and unflattened part of to-many
relationship (Xavier Destombes)
7. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Mike Schrag)
8. Re: VelocityEOGenerator and unflattened part of to-many
relationship (Mike Schrag)
9. Re: VelocityEOGenerator and unflattened part of to-many
relationship (Cornelius Jaeger)
10. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Georg Tuparev)
11. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Mike Schrag)
12. Re: Strange WOLips importing error (Pascal Robert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 07:53:26 -0500
From: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Everything looks normal, but I'd like to know what happened. I have
seen this in the past, and later discovered few files were missing.
You'd have to look in the Error Log view (not Problems View, but the
Error Log view -- if you Window=>Open View=>Error Log you can get to
it) and find the corresponding entry probably to get the actual stack
trace to have any chance of figuring out what exactly this NPE was.
Did I mention how much in love I am with Eclipse? Look what a
meaningful error, and look at the scroller of the text view... one
could scroll half a mile to the right to discover ... well,
nothing :)
Come on, Georg -- I KNOW you're not implying that WOB, EOModeler, and
Xcode were bug free, right? Because that would be silly, as I don't
even USE these apps and can think of several bugs in them. And when
Eclipse has a bug, there's almost always a proper stack trace
available somewhere in the logs vs when WOB fails and you get a one
line Obj-C error message and the entire application crashes down
around you. I'm not defending this particular error -- obviously it
provides no context and is basically worthless. But you know what?
We'll fix that bug within the next few days and you'll STILL be
waiting for a bugfix for some 4 year old bug filed against WOB.
ms
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:10:45 +0200
From: Georg Tuparev <email@hidden>
Subject: Eclipse forgets filters
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Masters of the Ecliptic Darkness,
Could you share a trick how I can teach my dear tool to stop
forgetting File Filter settings randomly?
(Leo 5.1, Eclipse and WOLips just few days old)
cheers
-- georg --
P.S. Another Eclipse usability story (copied for the iChat)
Me (frustrated): "I built a new framework (into ~/Lib/Frameworks) and
I can see it in Finder, but Eclipse cannot see it?!?!?!"
Our CEO *): "restart"
Me (thinking): "Last time I restarted Xcode was when I installed
10.5.1..."
*) In our company CEO means Chief Eclipse Officer :)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:05:04 -0500
From: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Everything looks normal, but I'd like to know what happened. I have
seen this in the past, and later discovered few files were missing.
Do you happen to have a non-WO Java Project in your workspace? It
looks like this can happen under certain circumstances with a non-WO
java project ... I committed a fix to prevent this NPE. I don't think
it should actually cause any problems, though. It looks like it's
basically trying to get a WO Project Adaptor for a non-WO project,
which is returning null (and then NPE'ing), but I think it will
continue to process WO projects properly.
ms
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:19:32 +0200
From: Georg Tuparev <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Nov 25, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:
Everything looks normal, but I'd like to know what happened. I have
seen this in the past, and later discovered few files were missing.
You'd have to look in the Error Log view (not Problems View, but the
Error Log view -- if you Window=>Open View=>Error Log you can get to
it) and find the corresponding entry probably to get the actual
stack trace to have any chance of figuring out what exactly this NPE
was.
Thanks, nice to know this. The error is already gone (I had to restart
Eclipse) but next time it happens I will check for the stack trace.
Did I mention how much in love I am with Eclipse? Look what a
meaningful error, and look at the scroller of the text view... one
could scroll half a mile to the right to discover ... well,
nothing :)
Come on, Georg -- I KNOW you're not implying that WOB, EOModeler,
and Xcode were bug free, right? Because that would be silly, as I
don't even USE these apps and can think of several bugs in them.
And when Eclipse has a bug, there's almost always a proper stack
trace available somewhere in the logs vs when WOB fails and you get
a one line Obj-C error message and the entire application crashes
down around you. I'm not defending this particular error --
obviously it provides no context and is basically worthless. But
you know what? We'll fix that bug within the next few days and
you'll STILL be waiting for a bugfix for some 4 year old bug filed
against WOB.
My comment was about esthetics and not about existence of bugs. One
needs to have very low esthetic desires not to be intimidated by the
look of Eclipse. I started using PB (now Xcode in 1991). Since that
time my collection of its UI disasters is significantly shorter
compared to the one I have for Eclipse.
But when you start the questions about bugs. You are absolutely
correct that there are many very old Xcode & friends related bugs (my
oldest reported and still opened is from 2003), and this is indeed
very frustrating. Nevertheless I moved a significant body of very old
C/Obj-C code (started 14 years ago) to Xcode 3 / Leo within 30 min.
And I was abled to move it to GC/Properties within 2 days. I am trying
to move from Tiger to Leo (using practically the same version of
Eclips/WOLips) for the last 2 weeks, and still cannot produce a
working (deployable) version. The same procedure when we moved to
Tiger took me calling a script and a coffee while waiting to finish
the compilation....
Here another one. I use the same version as you, and I use
<cmd><shift>-t/r constantly. Never crashed! For you it crashes 50% of
the time. Probably because around you is a bit colder, or I type
slower? In our team we observe such discrepancies daily. This does not
encourage my trust in the tool. These are factors we need to discuss
here and at bugreport.apple.com, and I am really tired of the standard
remarks, that we have to move on. I never will suggest that you or any
of the Eclipse advocates move to something else, but I would also
expect that you start also respecting what others have to say. Our
team develops one of the largest WO projects around, and I do not feel
I have no rights to have my opinion and also to communicate it. OK?
ms
-- georg --
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:21:59 +0200
From: Georg Tuparev <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Nov 25, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:
Everything looks normal, but I'd like to know what happened. I have
seen this in the past, and later discovered few files were missing.
Do you happen to have a non-WO Java Project in your workspace?
No. Java/WO only
It looks like this can happen under certain circumstances with a
non-WO java project ... I committed a fix to prevent this NPE. I
don't think it should actually cause any problems, though. It looks
like it's basically trying to get a WO Project Adaptor for a non-WO
project, which is returning null (and then NPE'ing), but I think it
will continue to process WO projects properly.
Cheers. When I am ready with the Leo transition, I will update, and
report if this happens again.
-- georg --
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:23:51 -0600
From: Xavier Destombes <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: VelocityEOGenerator and unflattened part of to-many
relationship
To: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hello Mike,
I've just downloaded the latest WOLips nightly (3.3.4667), the latest
VelocityTemplate, EOGenerate my model again, but I still got the same
error.
The non-flattened relationship to the join table and the to-one
relationships in the join table itself are not marked as class
relationship in my model though. Only the flattened one.
I'm not using package, could it be the reason why I still got the
error?
It's always interesting to know how people are doing, so I'm curious
about how do you handle many-to-may without flattened relationships.
Xavier
I'm still trying to find out why my generated classes using
VelocityEOGenerator aren't correct.
There's only one error left.
I'm using WO5.3 with latest WOLips and Mike's Velocity templates.
I have a Customer entity and a MailingCategory entity joined in a
toMany relationship.
In the flattened relationship _MailingCategoryCustomer.java,
everything is correct.
but there is one method in both _Customer.java and
_MailingCategory.java which has an error:
the template generates the following method:
I've committed a fix for this ... I don't use flattened properties,
but it seems a LITTLE bit weird that you have a flattened
relationship through the to-many but this bug implies that you also
have the non-flattened relationship to the join table as a class
relationship (but not the to-one relationships in the join table
itself). It seems like if you have the flattened relationship
through the join table that you don't probably want the to-many
relationship TO the join table to be a class properties. Regardless
I fixed the templates to make this work properly (or rather, at
least not generate invalid code) as well ...
ms
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:34:30 -0500
From: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
My comment was about esthetics and not about existence of bugs. One
needs to have very low esthetic desires not to be intimidated by the
look of Eclipse. I started using PB (now Xcode in 1991). Since that
time my collection of its UI disasters is significantly shorter
compared to the one I have for Eclipse.
This is only because you're used to Xcode/PB. For instance, I have no
idea how to modify classpath in Xcode, I find project navigation to be
totally obnoxious, among a pretty long list of other things that drive
me crazy. This is because I'm used to Eclipse. "UI disaster" is
completely relative to your experience.
But when you start the questions about bugs. You are absolutely
correct that there are many very old Xcode & friends related bugs
(my oldest reported and still opened is from 2003), and this is
indeed very frustrating. Nevertheless I moved a significant body of
very old C/Obj-C code (started 14 years ago) to Xcode 3 / Leo within
30 min. And I was abled to move it to GC/Properties within 2 days. I
am trying to move from Tiger to Leo (using practically the same
version of Eclips/WOLips) for the last 2 weeks, and still cannot
produce a working (deployable) version. The same procedure when we
moved to Tiger took me calling a script and a coffee while waiting
to finish the compilation....
You have to appreciate that 5.4 considerably complicated this entire
process and that it's mostly not Eclipse/WOLips. Aside from 5.4 (and
the Leopard crashing bug with 3.3.1 I have mentioned), the process for
installing and running Eclipse/WOLips is basically identical, so I'd
be interested to find out more about what problems you're seeing.
Here another one. I use the same version as you, and I use
<cmd><shift>-t/r constantly. Never crashed! For you it crashes 50%
of the time. Probably because around you is a bit colder, or I type
slower? In our team we observe such discrepancies daily. This does
not encourage my trust in the tool.
If you're observing daily discrepancies amongst your developers, then
it's in everyone's interest to log bugs for these things, because this
is not something I experience. I've said this repeatedly to people --
if you just silently stew over bugs, they're not going to get fixed.
My main complaint is that sarcastic "P.S."'s in emails don't help get
anything done, it just annoys the people that fix these problems. A
large part of my WOLips development time these days is spent focusing
on workflow and trying to streamline processes to make them less
confusing (especially for new users). You could have just as easily
posted a suggestion that we make frameworks automatically reload
when /
Lib/Fram changes (... which I've already been working on ...) instead
of posting it in the context of "how much eclipse usability sucks."
These are factors we need to discuss here and at
bugreport.apple.com, and I am really tired of the standard remarks,
that we have to move on. I never will suggest that you or any of the
Eclipse advocates move to something else, but I would also expect
that you start also respecting what others have to say. Our team
develops one of the largest WO projects around, and I do not feel I
have no rights to have my opinion and also to communicate it. OK?
Apple is telling you to move on. We just echo the official
recommendation now, though I have always encouraged people to do so
because I have seen, and everyone I know who has switched has seen, a
substantial productivity gain from doing so. I also believe that the
WOLips team consistently listens to outside opinions -- the Component
Outline View exists entirely because of Thomas' request to get a
better component visualization to help transition from WOB. I WANT
bugs filed ... I LIKE making the tools better (and I know the other
committers do, too). So by all means, make recommendations and discuss
problems, but that respect goes both ways.
ms
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:36:23 -0500
From: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: VelocityEOGenerator and unflattened part of to-many
relationship
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I'm not using package, could it be the reason why I still got the
error?
You should definitely be using packages, but if this IS the cause,
it's a bug in the templates. Is there any way you can either send me
a private email with your failing model or make a small test case
model that exhibits the same failures and send me that? I can't get
this error to occur when I try to reproduce what you're seeing using
the many-to-many relationship wizard, so there must be something
subtly different between what you have and what I have.
It's always interesting to know how people are doing, so I'm curious
about how do you handle many-to-may without flattened relationships.
I traverse the join table myself. I often find that I end up adding
additional attributes to the join entity that I need to access, so
flattening doesn't help.
ms
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:02:17 +0100
From: Cornelius Jaeger <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: VelocityEOGenerator and unflattened part of to-many
relationship
To: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
hi mike
i have this same problem
two of my joins are part of a flattened relationship and are not
marked as class properties.
i'll send the model file off list.
cheers
cornelius
On Nov 25, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:
I'm not using package, could it be the reason why I still got the
error?
You should definitely be using packages, but if this IS the cause,
it's a bug in the templates. Is there any way you can either send
me a private email with your failing model or make a small test case
model that exhibits the same failures and send me that? I can't get
this error to occur when I try to reproduce what you're seeing using
the many-to-many relationship wizard, so there must be something
subtly different between what you have and what I have.
It's always interesting to know how people are doing, so I'm
curious about how do you handle many-to-may without flattened
relationships.
I traverse the join table myself. I often find that I end up adding
additional attributes to the join entity that I need to access, so
flattening doesn't help.
ms
_______________________________________________
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Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:00:08 +0200
From: Georg Tuparev <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Nov 25, 2007, at 5:34 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:
My comment was about esthetics and not about existence of bugs. One
needs to have very low esthetic desires not to be intimidated by
the look of Eclipse. I started using PB (now Xcode in 1991). Since
that time my collection of its UI disasters is significantly
shorter compared to the one I have for Eclipse.
This is only because you're used to Xcode/PB. For instance, I have
no idea how to modify classpath in Xcode, I find project navigation
to be totally obnoxious, among a pretty long list of other things
that drive me crazy. This is because I'm used to Eclipse. "UI
disaster" is completely relative to your experience.
I disagree... Eclipse is not just against Xcode philosophy. Eclipse
contradicts any Apple HIG and any sane usability guidelines,
But when you start the questions about bugs. You are absolutely
correct that there are many very old Xcode & friends related bugs
(my oldest reported and still opened is from 2003), and this is
indeed very frustrating. Nevertheless I moved a significant body of
very old C/Obj-C code (started 14 years ago) to Xcode 3 / Leo
within 30 min. And I was abled to move it to GC/Properties within 2
days. I am trying to move from Tiger to Leo (using practically the
same version of Eclips/WOLips) for the last 2 weeks, and still
cannot produce a working (deployable) version. The same procedure
when we moved to Tiger took me calling a script and a coffee while
waiting to finish the compilation....
You have to appreciate that 5.4 considerably complicated this entire
process and that it's mostly not Eclipse/WOLips. Aside from 5.4
(and the Leopard crashing bug with 3.3.1 I have mentioned), the
process for installing and running Eclipse/WOLips is basically
identical, so I'd be interested to find out more about what problems
you're seeing.
Long story, and I will report if we run in a wall. Basically it works
if you know when and how many times you need to open/close projects,
clean them, restart eclipse, restart it with -clean, and when to go to
the local church for a short pray. To get this pattern right just
takes so much time... And of course all usual stuff with EOGen etc.
Here another one. I use the same version as you, and I use
<cmd><shift>-t/r constantly. Never crashed! For you it crashes 50%
of the time. Probably because around you is a bit colder, or I type
slower? In our team we observe such discrepancies daily. This does
not encourage my trust in the tool.
If you're observing daily discrepancies amongst your developers,
then it's in everyone's interest to log bugs for these things,
because this is not something I experience. I've said this
repeatedly to people -- if you just silently stew over bugs, they're
not going to get fixed.
You are right, and I will spend next few minutes in the corner very
ashamed. Should I fill bug reports to Wonder Jira?
My main complaint is that sarcastic "P.S."'s in emails don't help
get anything done, it just annoys the people that fix these
problems. A large part of my WOLips development time these days is
spent focusing on workflow and trying to streamline processes to
make them less confusing (especially for new users). You could have
just as easily posted a suggestion that we make frameworks
automatically reload when /Lib/Fram changes (... which I've already
been working on ...) instead of posting it in the context of "how
much eclipse usability sucks."
My P.S.'s are an expression of huge frustration. About the insane
decision of Apple, and about the fact that few Eclipse advocates are
so vocal, then almost no other opinion could be expressed on this
list. In private I often receive emails telling me that I am not
along. But as it happens in every community, many people are quiet,
and one would get the feeling I and Ken are the only black sheep here.
When I am able to state that the UI of Eclipse is a horror without
being bashed, and when the rights of the developers of using nice
elegant native tools are accepted, I will stop writing P.S.'s.
These are factors we need to discuss here and at
bugreport.apple.com, and I am really tired of the standard remarks,
that we have to move on. I never will suggest that you or any of
the Eclipse advocates move to something else, but I would also
expect that you start also respecting what others have to say. Our
team develops one of the largest WO projects around, and I do not
feel I have no rights to have my opinion and also to communicate
it. OK?
Apple is telling you to move on. We just echo the official
recommendation now, though I have always encouraged people to do so
because I have seen, and everyone I know who has switched has seen,
a substantial productivity gain from doing so. I also believe that
the WOLips team consistently listens to outside opinions -- the
Component Outline View exists entirely because of Thomas' request to
get a better component visualization to help transition from WOB. I
WANT bugs filed ... I LIKE making the tools better (and I know the
other committers do, too). So by all means, make recommendations and
discuss problems, but that respect goes both ways.
Again I bag to differ. My hypothesis is that Apple just followed the
most vocal people of the Wonder community. This was a very comfortable
decision for then because it freed them of investing in tool support.
If the same people would spend the same mental and vocal energy on
supporting the old WO tools, we could be in completely different
environment now.
gt
ms
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:04:31 -0500
From: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I disagree... Eclipse is not just against Xcode philosophy. Eclipse
contradicts any Apple HIG and any sane usability guidelines,
While I completely agree that Eclipse has plenty of problems, my main
point was that every IDE has UI problems -- they are very complicated
tools. You've just become accustomed to accepting Xcode's problems
and you're put off by Eclipse's different set of problems (whereas I'm
totally put off by Xcode's confusing user interfaces for Java
development and its comparative lack of features). Look at any of
Apple's pro tools (Final Cut Pro comes to mind). They all have custom
user interfaces and they're all much more complicated than, say,
iPhoto, because the people who use pro tools have much higher demands
on customization and productivity. For the most part, I have yet to
see a pro tool that is really able to deliver the ease-of-use of an
Apple consumer app without sacrificing functionality. Interface
Builder is one, and I think Xray (err . whatever it is named now) is
another that does a great job at this. It's really hard.
Regardless, I would love to get suggestions on particular elements
that you dislike, because Eclipse/WOLips is open source and we can fix
them ... It's very likely that you have a lot of great ideas that I'm
just not even considering because I've been using Eclipse/WOLips too
long to notice them anymore. I was serious when I say I want the tools
to not suck. The less they suck, the easier it is for us to develop
applications and the more easily we can train new developers.
Long story, and I will report if we run in a wall. Basically it
works if you know when and how many times you need to open/close
projects, clean them, restart eclipse, restart it with -clean, and
when to go to the local church for a short pray. To get this
pattern right just takes so much time... And of course all usual
stuff with EOGen etc.
For the record, this is 99% of the time WOLips and its more complex
build system requirements over a "normal" Java project (rather than
Eclipse itself). What this means is that it's also fully within our
control to fix these. The cases of these weird build problems have
been decreasing, but they're still not gone. Build system is one of
the things that's on my short term hit list ...
* open/close projects - this is definitely one of the mojo fixes for
things. If you get reproducible cases of bugs that require this,
definitely log them, because I'm always on the lookout for them.
* clean project - After a crash, or after changing compiler/validator
settings, etc this is probably always going to be required (because of
eclipse's incremental compiler, it needs to be in a known state). But
cleaning "just because" totally sucks and is still necessary
occasionally. I'm hoping some of the upcoming cleansing of the WOLips
build process will make this less common.
* Other than upgrading, you should NEVER have to restart Eclipse
(should != don't right now, I mean in the grand scheme). I find this
to be totally unacceptable. The only ones that I know of for sure
right now are /Lib/Fram reloading (which I mentioned is on the way
out) and I believe there's a classpath caching bug in Entity Modeler
in SQL generation under certain circumstances that I haven't totally
nailed down yet.
* eclipse -clean should never have to be run ... This is only if you
install plugins in a weird way. I'm actually not aware of any case in
WOLips that requires this now, so you can at least remove this out of
your Mojo Dance :)
You are right, and I will spend next few minutes in the corner
very ashamed. Should I fill bug reports to Wonder Jira?
You may come out of timeout now :) WOLips Jira, actually ...
http://issues.objectstyle.org/jira/browse/WOL
My P.S.'s are an expression of huge frustration. About the insane
decision of Apple, and about the fact that few Eclipse advocates
are so vocal, then almost no other opinion could be expressed on
this list. In private I often receive emails telling me that I am
not along. But as it happens in every community, many people are
quiet, and one would get the feeling I and Ken are the only black
sheep here. When I am able to state that the UI of Eclipse is a
horror without being bashed, and when the rights of the developers
of using nice elegant native tools are accepted, I will stop
writing P.S.'s.
I get emails, too (admittedly, more pro than con, but I'm sure people
email who they think will be a sympathetic ear :) ) .. And I wish
people would speak up more, because it helps the entire community to
have discussions of these topics. I just want productive discussions
on it, not "snippy asides." Like I mentioned above, we are in control
of these tools at this point. We can change them however we'd like.
Again I bag to differ. My hypothesis is that Apple just followed
the most vocal people of the Wonder community. This was a very
comfortable decision for then because it freed them of investing
in tool support. If the same people would spend the same mental
and vocal energy on supporting the old WO tools, we could be in
completely different environment now.
You're overlooking the other possibility, which is that Apple maybe
isn't WILLING to invest in WO tools, and the longer they choose not
to, the higher the risk that a WO tool would break in a future
release, which would potentially put the entire framework release at
risk. In this interpretation of events, WOLips freed the core
frameworks to grow with substantially less risk.
As far as supporting the old WO tools, I'm not exactly sure how we
could have supported them. Could we have begged Apple louder to
replace them? It had been years since anything really had come out of
Apple in this regard. None of the Apple tools support a public plugin
architecture, so begging was really the only other choice. So it was
either that we try to provide nice replacements to the tools (which is
the route we chose) or we beg louder, which hasn't had much impact on
Apple over the past 5-7 years.
ms
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:55:10 -0500
From: Pascal Robert <email@hidden>
Subject: Re: Strange WOLips importing error
To: Mike Schrag <email@hidden>
Cc: WebObjects Dev Apple <email@hidden>
Message-ID: <email@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Again I bag to differ. My hypothesis is that Apple just followed
the most vocal people of the Wonder community. This was a very
comfortable decision for then because it freed them of investing
in tool support. If the same people would spend the same mental
and vocal energy on supporting the old WO tools, we could be in
completely different environment now.
You're overlooking the other possibility, which is that Apple maybe
isn't WILLING to invest in WO tools, and the longer they choose not
to, the higher the risk that a WO tool would break in a future
release, which would potentially put the entire framework release
at risk. In this interpretation of events, WOLips freed the core
frameworks to grow with substantially less risk.
As far as supporting the old WO tools, I'm not exactly sure how we
could have supported them. Could we have begged Apple louder to
replace them? It had been years since anything really had come out
of Apple in this regard. None of the Apple tools support a public
plugin architecture, so begging was really the only other choice.
So it was either that we try to provide nice replacements to the
tools (which is the route we chose) or we beg louder, which hasn't
had much impact on Apple over the past 5-7 years.
I'm starting to think they dropped the tools for both reasons. They
looked at what the most vocal users of WO are using, and what Apple
staff are using, and they saw that most of them were already using
Eclipse. At the same time, they wanted to remove old legacy stuff
from Leopard, and Cocoa EOF was one of those legacy technologies.
BTW, the annual survey is a good way to get feedback from the whole
community, not just the vocal ones. This is why we created the new
WO community Web site and the surveys.
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